What (if anything) does an Ant owe a Grasshopper?

You all know the fable of the ant and the grasshopper, I’m sure. Right now, two of my cousins are living it in Real Life, and needless to say, it’s creating a lot of dissension in the larger family.

Situation: start with two brothers, who started out more or less equal in life. As in, they had what seemed like similar IQs, similar appearances, similar amounts of talents and social graces and so forth. Not twins, but they are only 20 months apart in age. Both graduated from 4-year colleges mostly on their parent’s dime. Both took typical entry-level jobs, and both married their college girlfriends within a year or so of graduation.

After that, though…

Brother Grasshopper and his wife always had as good a time as their income would allow. She had weekly appointments for manicures and hair care, he indulged in several expensive hobbies. Both of them kept extensive wardrobes, went on expensive vacations, dined out almost every night, drank only premium booze, and so forth. They bought a new car each year: replacing his car one year, hers the next. Biggest cost: they lived in the ritziest apartments and condos they could possibly afford, until they finally bought the best house they could swing on one of those really creative no money down, don’t even pay the whole interest mortgages. Basically they spent every cent they got, and more besides, but all was well…until he lost his job in a merger and hasn’t been able to find a comparable one for over a year now. Their credit is maxed and they basically have no money in the bank. (What he earns at a much lower-level job won’t cover the monthly bills let alone the back log.) Both cars have been repoed (and sold for less than the outstanding debt on them, and they are now looking at foreclosure on the house. It really looks grim for them.

Brother Ant and his wife always made a point out of living WELL below their means. Not shopping at Good Will and getting their groceries at the Dented Can store level, but things like keeping their cars for seven years and more, eating mostly at home, taking modest vacations. They bought a ‘starter’ home as soon as they could, and never traded up. They have the house completely paid off, ditto their cars, and they have built up a substantial amount of savings. Basically they are sitting pretty.

Brother Grasshopper is now asking Brother Ant for help. How much, if anything, should they give him?

See, yes, the Ants could catch up the Grasshopper’s mortgage payments, and pay off the credit cards, too. But the thing is, the Ants had a plan and have kept to it for three decades. They worked hard and spent little so they could amass enough money to let them retire early and then indulge in the travel and such that they’d denied themselves before, and still be confident that they’d have enough funds to keep them comfortable for the rest of their lives. If they bail out the Grasshoppers, they face a hard choice:

They could put off their retirement for maybe five years, maybe even longer to get them back to the equivalent financial status. But that’s five years out of their retirement lifetime, and who’s to say how long they both will stay healthy enough to work, let alone enjoy travel?

They could retire on schedule, but have to continue to live their frugal lifestyle, with no ‘payoff’ from all their years of self-denial.

They could retire on schedule and travel…and hope like hell they both die early enough not to end up living on just Social Security. :frowning:
Mr. Ant doesn’t want to have to chose any of the above, but he feels that he simply can’t allow the Grasshoppers to freeze in the cold, as it were.

Mrs. Ant hates the idea of having to settle for any of the above choices. She deprived herself of a lot of things she’d have liked to have had or done over the years for the sake of this wonderful retirement. She says giving any large amount of money to the Grasshoppers means the Grasshoppers got to have the pleasure of ALL the luxuries that BOTH household’s incomes could stretch to, leaving the Ants to have had all the work and none of the pleasures.
Personally I sympathize with Mrs. Ant, but some of that is no doubt because Mrs. Grasshopper has always been a real bitch about showing off her latest toys to the whole family and rubbing it in that THEY have this wonderful lifestyle while the rest of us live like peons in comparison.

Anyway…what say you? Should the Grasshoppers be left to scrabble along as best they could? (Let’s face it, they really wouldn’t be out in the cold. More like bankruptcy, loss of house and furnishings, then the much reduced lifestyle that Mr. Ant’s current salary can handle.)

Or would it be unforgivably selfish for the Ants to, metaphorically speaking, simply wave goodbye as they set off on a cruise while the debt collector hounds close in on the Grasshoppers?

Well, I don’t think the Ants owe the Grasshoppers anything. But when it comes to family, it gets sticky. I wouldn’t blame the Ants for giving them absolutely nothing, but if it were me it would be difficult. If I did give them anything it would be under strict conditions, though - they give me all their paperwork, go to debt counseling, get everything in real order, maybe consolidate, and then I loan them what they absolutely need to keep the creditors at bay in time to get back on their feet. If they have to downsize houses and cars and all, so be it. And I’d damned well want that money back.

Hell, they’re only cousins. I figure they’re enititled to get fed and lodged for up to three nights a year, assuming they mind their manners, but that’s about it. The Grasshoppers might want to go talk to a bankruptcy lawyer.

Oakminster, it says they’re brothers.

Catch up the mortgage on the mega-house? Pay off the credit card debts for the extravagant purchases? No, I don’t think so. The grasshoppers have to live within their means. Starting now.

Did Mrs. Grasshopper ever have a job to keep up with the lifestyle she lived? If not, she needs to get a job to make up what they can’t pay in bills, and, while they’ll probably still have to declare bankruptcy, she’ll learn the value of those dollars she’s spending.

Spending beyond one’s means should have consequences, and the Ants bailing out the Grasshoppers is not teaching them any lessons.

Reading is fundamental. :smack:

Comment withdrawn. Except for the bankruptcy part.

I would bankrupt myself to keep a sibling from starving, or from going without medical care without a moment’s hesitation. I wouldn’t do much to prevent the loss of a too-big, too-expensive house since that would quickly take everything I’ve got and leave us all with nothing.

The house being repossessed isn’t the end of the world.

And just based on this OP, I’d rather not know the Ants or the Grasshoppers.

Well put. I have brothers (all of them ants, like me :)), and I would bail them out if need be. If I had a grasshopper brother, I certainly wouldn’t let him starve. Would I sacrifice my family’s future to make sure he stayed in his Mc Mansion (in this example, a home the ant never provided his own family)? No, I wouldn’t.

It would be nice of the Ants to keep the Grasshoppers from pushing a supermarket cart full of garbage down the street. Or from dying a painful death because they couldn’t afford a $10 bottle of antibiotics. If they want to, that is. More than that, they are just facilitating their vices.

If you’ve got it, share it. You can’t take it with you.

The Ants have a long way to go before they are going to the big ant farm in the sky. There is retirement putting the larvae through college etc.

This is important; is “Mr Grasshopper” anything like this ? I don’t feel any obligation to help someone who acts like a jerk to me.

In that case, no, they don’t owe them much, if anything. I wouldn’t let someone starve or freeze just because they showed bad judgement, but it’s not my responsibility to keep them in the style to which they have become accustomed.

And here’s another two points. First, who’s to say they won’t spend themselves into disaster again and need to be bailed out again ? And again and again . . . It’s not like they made one big mistake; they systematically dug themselves into a hole, and IMHO that kind of systematic bad judgement seldom improves.

And second, what if the Ants spend their reserve - and then they or the Grasshoppers hit a crisis where the need that money; a major medical crisis, for example ?

Sure! In fact, why weren’t you helping him to pay his mortgage all along?

What sort of help is he asking for? A couple bucks for macaroni and cheese? Help finding a used car that runs okay?

It strikes me as absurd for Mr. and Mrs. Ant to pay for luxuries for Mr. and Mrs. Grasshopper that Mr. and Mrs. Ant themselves don’t have. Which is essentially what they’d be doing if they paid off the mortgage or credit cards.

I say let the Grasshoppers figure it out by themselves…you don’t owe them anything because you planned ahead and they didn’t.

I have seen a similar situation close to my own life. The Grasshopper family has not dug themselves quite so big a hole, but they seem to resent the Ant family for being in a more secure financial position. The Ant family has sacrificed a lot to be in that position, and see no reason to feel guilty about it.

Well the reality is that neither lifestyle is particularly wise. You don’t want to live like there’s no tomorrow and you don’t want to live like a pauper to save for some future that may never come.

The OP’s question is also loaded because he has already made a value judgement about the Grasshoppers lifestyle. They may be able to go back to their old ways once he finds a comparable job. Or, in true Who Moved My Cheese fashion, he may need to readjust his lifestyle.

As for obligations, I think that as they are family, the Ant should hel his brother get back on his feet. That does not mean, however, he is obligated to finance an ostantatious lifestyle.

Gee, this sounds a little familiar to me!

I do not think that Ant brother owes Grasshopper brother mortgage payments. I can see giving him one or two payments if this is temporary, since losing a house is bad; but at this point I think they should sell the house (or even have it foreclosed if that’s the only option) and move into an apartment. Grasshopper couple can both get jobs, go into debt counseling, get things consolidated, probably sell a bunch of their possessions, and see where they stand. Once that is all done, it would be nice for Ant brother to, say, help them get a used car, maybe help out with a few other things, but by no means should he be supporting them. They are not going to ‘freeze in the cold’ if they lose their house and have to move to a small apartment.

I don’t think that it is really a good idea to give them lots of money; giving them sound financial advice and help is the more truly helpful thing to do. Supporting them, paying off debts, or similar is really just enabling them and putting off the day when they stand on their own two (wait, four) feet. Grasshopper couple needs to learn some hard lessons before they get much older; at this point I presume that they are healthy and able to work, but how long will that last?

It may be quite painful to deny Grasshopper brother lots of cash help; both choices are no fun, and this one will no doubt earn Ant brother plenty of recrimination. But I really do think that it is the better choice for both brothers. (Is it possible for Ant couple to go off on lovely vacations without informing anyone else?)

I have a sister who is a grasshopper in a big bad way. Both my father and my grandmother (when she was alive) warned me against allowing my sister to take financial advantage of me. In their opinion, my first obligation is to my immediate family (wife and daughter), and my sister (who has been bailed out before by our dad) needs to take responsibility for her own behavior. I plan to save our money for retirement and future medical expenses, for my daughter’s education (and maybe graduate school), and (hopefully) to leave something to my daughter when I go to that big discussion forum up in the sky. I will not allow my sister’s irresponsibility to upset my careful planning. It’s not about being an asshole; it’s about personal responsibility. It’s also about who comes first: my wife and daughter, or my sister?

I think this is the right approach. As long as Grasshopper has a job, he will be okay. He might have to move to a tiny, cheap cramped apartment; he might have to sell his fancy car and buy an old beater; he might have to shop at Sam’s instead of Whole Foods; but he will survive. And I don’t think the Ants have any obligation to prevent Grasshopper from facing the consequences of his own poor planning. As someone pointed out earlier, if Ant pays Grasshopper’s credit cards, he is essentially paying for Grasshopper’s luxury goods which he (Ant) denied himself in order to get his financial house in order. Bad call.

Edit: I see that Grasshopper actually doesn’t have a job. That might change things somewhat. But no doubt there is some job Grasshopper can find, even if it is not in his field. If Grasshopper is faced with the choice between taking a bad-paying job not in his field or fucking up Ant’s financial house, he should take the former.

The grasshopper is in bad shape, he has got to sell the house (the mortgage could bankrupt them all), maybe grasshopper has to file bankruptcy and get those credit card debts extinguished and maybe the ant takes in their kids while the grasshopper parents try to get their act together. But, they cannot spend their nest egg on bailing out the grasshopper, only bad things can come of it.

You have absolutely no obligation.

Unless your brother is committing some sort of fraud, he’s just going to have to take his lumps. He’s not going to be thrown in debtors prison. He’s not going to end up homeless. He’ll be poor, and for a long time, but remember… he acted rich to begin with. Now it’s “poor time”. We all have that period… now it’s your brothers “poor time.”

Your wife is entirely correct to be upset. She is in this marriage with you, not your brother, and she sacrificed for decades for the dreams and plans you two came up with together.

I mean, let’s face it: You’re asking her to sacrifice what she worked so hard for so long merely so you don’t have to look your brother in the eye and say “No.” 30 years of dreams, sacrificed, to avoid 30 seconds of discomfort. That’s a lot to ask of your woman, especially if you’re taking away three decades of her dreams.

My father, a lot like your brother, once took me out of school on an impromptu trip to see my (maternal) grandfather. According to my grandfather, my pop took out a “list of bills a mile long” and asked for money (I’m pretty sure it was in the six-figures). When my grandfather said “No”, my father used the old “what about the grandkids” tactic… to which my grandfather replied “If you can’t support them, we’ll take them in. No.”

My dad got over it. The next couple of years were tough, but he got over it and is the owner of a very successful business. He lost his house (and the next one), couldn’t get a credit card for a few years, drove a series of $200-500 used cars (this was the late 1970s-early 1980s)… but got over it.

As will your brother. But not if you give him the money. Then he’ll have never learned his lesson, he’ll merely delay his “poor time”, and all at the expense of your retirement dreams… and maybe your marriage. Who knows?

Just don’t give him the money.