What if Frodo had died at Weathertop?

Why wouldn’t the first work? Would the Valar simply have sank any ship that approached containing the One Ring? Would they sense it?

50 pages on the new creoles created after the Orcs subjugated all the other races.

We’re told explicitly in the council by Elrond that “…they who dwell beyond the Sea would not receive it: for good or ill it belongs to Middle-earth; it is for us who still dwell here to deal with it."

I do want to mention something that’s kind of bugged me for awhile. Isildur carried the Ring around for two years without (apparently) conquering the Middle-Earth or seeming to have any great designs. He must not have experimented with it much since he could only use it to turn invisible at Gladden Fields. And according to Wikipedia, “Realized his mistake in keeping it and intended to return it to the Elves”

Now…sure he probably would have changed his mind at some point and the only fanwank reason I can give why he wasn’t overcome by the Ring is that Isildur is a legendary figure. Think Aragorn times 100.

Feed it to a troll (hide it in a goat) and expose the troll to sunlight.

This. I think Sam would have taken it, all the way to the lava, but he probably would have faltered at the same moment as Frodo did and there would be no Gollum to help. I know Sam was strong and even carried the ring for a while and is one of the only two (? IIRC) characters who gave up the ring voluntarily, but to carry it all that way…I think in the end, the Dark Lord would have triumphed.

Along comes an unsuspecting mason with a low willpower and…

Yep, since the Will of Sauron would stop the Eagles dead in their tracks, and the Nazgul just fly up there and kill them.

And manages to chisel it out in the next couple of ages. :slight_smile:

Is the general theory that even with ring hidden away, Sauron would still win?

I have said this before with more or less degrees of bitchiness, but the Eagles are not Middle Earth’s taxi service. They don’t come when called. They came to Gandalf because they owed him a number of favors but to fly into Mordor before Sauron was vanquished is almost literally akin to flying into Hell - there isn’t a favor big enough. Plus if you were Sauron and you saw a bunch of fatass Eagles flying toward your Tower of Doom you’d damn well get not just the Nazgul over there but every catapult, ballista, and other machine of war you could find. Remember how technogically savvy the Orcs and such were, with their machines?

In contrast, two Hobbits on foot were a totally unprecedented move and one the Enemy never even thought of in his arrogance and conceit. So please stop assuming the Eagles were anyone’s bitches. They were proud and regal creatures themselves.


Well, I have fought this battle too, ever since some joker thought it was funny and said “Well just have the eagles fly it over and drop it!”. *It was a joke, son. *

If Frodo hadn’t been there Sam never would have spoken up to volunteer to take it like Frodo did.

Well… how about a catapult?

Likely, but not certainly. OK, the battle of Minas Tirith still ends in a big Win for the Good guys. But as you can see at the Battle of the Morannon, Sauron was by no means out of troops.

Aragorn et al, have pretty well pulled all their tricks out of their sleeves. The Dead Men of Dunharrow have fulfilled their oaths.

So, taking out the Dark Lord out of Mordor is pretty much a no-go. Aragorn could fortify Osgilath. But who is going to regain their power faster? The Dark Lord or the forces of Light?

True, the Alliance also won the Battle of Dale, Battle of Mirkwood and the Siege of Lórien. But Sauron coudl recoup his losses faster- except perhaps the Witch-King. Which brings up the issue of did the Nazgul wear their rings? If not, could Sauron just make a new Nazgul? If so, then what?

At best you have a long drawn out war.

Meanwhile the Shire is destroyed by Sharky.

I don’t think the quest is 100% doomed if Frodo can’t be the ring-bearer. Faramir, Bilbo and Sam all possessed the ring and were able to return it. Faramir is proof that it’s not just a natural hobbit immunity, and Frodo himself is proof that even hobbits can be overcome eventually.

We also see characters like Boromir who are mastered by the ring without even touching it, yet Aragorn and Gandalf are both able to escort a ring-bearer even if they do not trust themselves to bear it directly.

So I’m lead to the conclusion that someone might have been found who could replace Frodo. Frodo is exceptional, but not entirely unique. In fact, Frodo himself proves unable to complete the quest when he finally arrives in Mordor; it is only completed “on accident” by Gollum. No one at the council of Elrond could precisely foresee that turn of events.

I know it was a joke. I just needed to say what I said. :slight_smile:

I knew that.

My first question when reading the OP was, at what point did anybody but Frodo & Gandalf know that Frodo was carrying the ring? Did Sam know he had it? True, he said

but he was quite a ninny, and I could totally see him wanting to bury Frodo with his ring “because that’s what he would have wanted.” Was the mission that everybody knew “get to Rivendell” or “get THE RING to Rivendell?”

Imagine the look on Gandalf’s face if they showed up without Frodo… “What’s that, Gandalf? Frodo? I’m sorry, but he got stabbed & died. We buried him at Weathertop. Gandalf? Gandalf? Where’d he go?”

A more interesting thought experiment, as carnivorousplant alludes to (and what an appropriate username!) is what happens if Sam gets the ring, goes crazy, and becomes Master of it? Let’s ignore Sauron in this possibility, or even say that Sam somehow defeats Sauron. I know, I know, the ring is Sauron’s, so it’s always trying to get back to him. Still…
Would everyone in Middle Earth be servants to the Earth? Would we all be weeding? Gardening? Or more likely, IMO, he might kill everything that wasn’t a plant - a sort of Tolkien Poison Ivy.