What IF Noah's Ark was found?

[Ben]

Originally posted by pashley:
** My point is, because we can’t explain something immediatley, doesn’t mean we should discount it’s occurence just as quick.
**

Yes, but the fact is that there is no boat on Mt. Ararat. Instead of talking about whether we should accept make-believe evidence, perhaps you’d like to go to the “Creationists:Strut your Stuff” thread which was created so that you, yes, you personally could present real evidence?

-Ben

[Spiritus_Mundi]

Well, Gaudere kind of beat me to it, but . . .

Ah, my friend, but it was alledged that a boat the dimensions of which God himself gave, couldn’t float, yet that has been shown to be true (at least at a scale-model and wave tank level).

Ignoring for now the fact that you cannot actually cite a reference, do you have any idea how silly it sounds to counter arguments based upon the size of the ark by making a scale model? I don’t think naybody has argued that nothing “ark shaped” would be seaworthy.

Oh c’mon, people in a third-world country are going to carry what very sparse amount of wood they can find up a mountain to build a barn?

It is not particularly relevant to the question at hand, but this statement does kind of underscore your general ignorance of human history. The area in question was a primary center of civilization for millenia before your third-world prejudices were born. At the time of your supposed flood Mesopotamia might have been the richest region on earth.

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The best lack all conviction
The worst are full of passionate intensity.
*

[Scylla]

The OP does Specifically say “Noah’s Ark”

(I assume we can tell it’s Noah’s Ark because his registration and title were found in the glove compartment)

In all fairness we really can’t confuse this Ark with the Invisible Pink Unicorn’s Bath Toy of Righteoussness, or Gilgamesh’s barge.

[pashley]

Originally posted by Nen:
** Perhaps more central to the aim of the OP is the question, “Why do some have a need for faith?”

**

Excellent question, Nen.

Why?

I can only answer this for myself, of course, but I’m sure many others would agree.

I believe life, my life, has a purpose, an end, a goal in mind.

If I believe that, it is reasonable to believe that something must have created that purpose, that reason.

God

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Patrick Ashley

“For those who believe, no evidence is necessary; for those who don’t believe, no evidence is enough.” -Unknown

[pashley]

Originally posted by Esprix:
**

Seriously, why do you say that? A Hindu could just as easily say Vishnu put it there; a Roman (Greek?) would have said Poseidon put it there; A Buddhist would say Buddah put it there (or ignore it completely as irrelevant); a Movementarian would say The Leader put it there {Simpsons reference!}; and you say God put it there. What makes you so special?
Esprix

**

I say that, because it is what I believe. I’ve investigated Christianity, and believe in it, just as the Hindu believes his religion. What’s wrong with that?

Am I 100% right? I think so, but I don’t KNOW so.

Do you know if UU is correct?

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Patrick Ashley

“For those who believe, no evidence is necessary; for those who don’t believe, no evidence is enough.” -Unknown

[pashley]

Originally posted by Gaudere:
I object to your referring to a tenet of our religion as being a “stick-your-head-in-the-sand” response, pashley. I fail to see why our belief that the Invisisble Pink (get it right, Andros, Esprix ) Unicorn’s (pbuh) bath toy resides on top of a mountain is any more deserving of being mocked than a God that would drown millions of innocent animals because He was annoyed at a few hominids. If the IPU wanted to wipe out a few evil humans, She’d just do it, and not mess around with such tedious impossible-boat building and lengthy floods.

Very cute. And your history of this religion is how many minutes?

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Patrick Ashley

“For those who believe, no evidence is necessary; for those who don’t believe, no evidence is enough.” -Unknown

[pashley]

Originally posted by tdn:
** Based on those terms alone, I would say that a) it would have to be carried up there, or b) somehow it flew up there, or c) God put it there. In any of those cases, the whole Noah story doesn’t wash (pun intended).

But I suspect that this is not the answer that you are looking for. What you want is for people to say “Then I’ll believe in God, give up all of my wordly possessions, and join the priesthood.” It’s clear that you don’t want scientific discourse here, you want people to believe in God. Sorry, Pat, some people just won’t.**

I’m not asking people to give up all their worldly possesions, so why don’t you try to keep your ill-informed notions of what Christianity is about to yourself?

Read the OP once again. No, wait, don’t. You’ve answered. You’ve said, to paraphrase, that the story of Noah and fact that the Ark is there is just a coincidence.

Get your head out of the sand.

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Patrick Ashley

“For those who believe, no evidence is necessary; for those who don’t believe, no evidence is enough.” -Unknown

[pashley]

Originally posted by Ben:
** Yes, but the fact is that there is no boat on Mt. Ararat. Instead of talking about whether we should accept make-believe evidence, perhaps you’d like to go to the “Creationists:Strut your Stuff” thread which was created so that you, yes, you personally could present real evidence?

-Ben**

Ben, go back to the OP. I stated “what if”. It’s up to you to take it from there.

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Patrick Ashley

“For those who believe, no evidence is necessary; for those who don’t believe, no evidence is enough.” -Unknown

[pashley]

Originally posted by Spiritus Mundi:
**Well, Gaudere kind of beat me to it, but . . .

Ah, my friend, but it was alledged that a boat the dimensions of which God himself gave, couldn’t float, yet that has been shown to be true (at least at a scale-model and wave tank level).

Ignoring for now the fact that you cannot actually cite a reference, do you have any idea how silly it sounds to counter arguments based upon the size of the ark by making a scale model? I don’t think naybody has argued that nothing “ark shaped” would be seaworthy.

So those silly engineers at Boeing using wind tunnels on SCALE MODEL AIRCRAFT are just wasting their time. Oh, ok.

Oh c’mon, people in a third-world country are going to carry what very sparse amount of wood they can find up a mountain to build a barn?

It is not particularly relevant to the question at hand, but this statement does kind of underscore your general ignorance of human history. The area in question was a primary center of civilization for millenia before your third-world prejudices were born. At the time of your supposed flood Mesopotamia might have been the richest region on earth.

**

Rich, maybe in money, but certainly not in wood. There is very little wood in that region.
“Of course this underscores YOUR ignorance of the flora of that part of the world.”

See, i can play nasty too. I don’t like to. So please refrain from the nastiness.

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Patrick Ashley

“For those who believe, no evidence is necessary; for those who don’t believe, no evidence is enough.” -Unknown

[Spoke]

Originally posted by pashley:

Ah, no, if you don’t believe a flood put there, YOU explain to me how it got there. That was the point of the OP.

Tell you what Pashley, old buddy. You find the Ark, and I’ll gladly become a deacon in the church of your choosing. In the meantime, why don’t we debate something more meaningful, like: “How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?”

[tdn]

Originally posted by pashley:
I’m not asking people to give up all their worldly possesions, so why don’t you try to keep your ill-informed notions of what Christianity is about to yourself?

OK, maybe I was a little out of line on that. But it’s clear that you’re either trying to get people to believe, or you want to back people into a corner so that you can say “Gotcha! I’m right and you are all wrong.”

Read the OP once again. No, wait, don’t. You’ve answered. You’ve said, to paraphrase, that the story of Noah and fact that the Ark is there is just a coincidence.

Huh? I’m not sure whose post you were reading, but obviously it wasn’t mine. I said no such thing.

You asked how a hypothetical boat got on top of a mountain if there was no flood. I offered an explanation. You then accuse me, if I understand, of not connecting the fact that the Ark was found with the facts of the story of Noah. That’s a mighty big leap of logic, and some pretty hefty assumptions.

My real point here is that you have no interest in the scientific possibility of an Ark. You are trolling so that you can repeatedly say “Look what a good God-fearing boy am I” and can feel superior to the rest of us.

[pashley]

Originally posted by spoke-:
** Tell you what Pashley, old buddy. You find the Ark, and I’ll gladly become a deacon in the church of your choosing. In the meantime, why don’t we debate something more meaningful, like: “How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?”**

If you’re saying that this thread is pointless, I’ll refer you to the other 150-some other posts that beg to differ.

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Patrick Ashley

“For those who believe, no evidence is necessary; for those who don’t believe, no evidence is enough.” -Unknown

[Spiritus_Mundi]

So those silly engineers at Boeing using wind tunnels on SCALE MODEL AIRCRAFT are just wasting their time. Oh, ok.

Wind tunnels will tell an engineer many things. They will not tell him whether a model can be blown up to any arbitrary scale while maintaining structural integrity under stress.

Build a wooden biplane the size of texas. Will it fly? What if the scale model “flies” in a wind tunnel? Have you ever heard of the Spruce Goose?

Rich, maybe in money, but certainly not in wood. There is very little wood in that region.

It is a mistake to imagine that the landscape has been unchanged for 6,000 years. Many areas of the world were forested in teh past which are now barren. Lebanon was famous for its Cedar at one point. We know that the people of Mesopotamia built wooden barges for river transport. Where do you think that wood came from?

[pashley]

Originally posted by tdn:
**

My real point here is that you have no interest in the scientific possibility of an Ark. You are trolling so that you can repeatedly say “Look what a good God-fearing boy am I” and can feel superior to the rest of us.**

Oh please, that is soooooo lame.

What i am doing is challenging those who feel the Bible is just a dusty old book that’s been revised three thousand times, and has not a shred of (at least) historical truth in it, to at least allow that yes, the Bible could have some historical truth in it.

If the Ark that was described in the book of Noah came to be found, high on a mountain, how would they reconcile that? That’s the only challenge i was making.

And as far as the comment of me “trolling so that you can repeatedly say “Look what a good God-fearing boy am I” and can feel superior to the rest of us” goes, let me make a little public confession, right here.

I am a sinner. I do things that offend God. I wrestle with things I should not do everyday. I’m too ashamed to even admit them here, on an anonymous board. But, I ask God for forgiveness, and strength to help me fight. The spirit is willing, the flesh is weak, so the saying goes. I am no better than any other human, nor is any other better than me.

You think I’m looking for some kind of ego or religious ‘stroking’ on this board? I certainly haven’t gotten it, if I was. I could go to a “Christian Club” for that. I came here to put my faith to the test, and you guys certainly have helped with that.

Patrick Ashley

“For those who believe, no evidence is necessary; for those who don’t believe, no evidence is enough.” -Unknown

[pashley]

Originally posted by Spiritus Mundi:
**

So those silly engineers at Boeing using wind tunnels on SCALE MODEL AIRCRAFT are just wasting their time. Oh, ok.

Wind tunnels will tell an engineer many things. They will not tell him whether a model can be blown up to any arbitrary scale while maintaining structural integrity under stress.

Build a wooden biplane the size of texas. Will it fly? What if the scale model “flies” in a wind tunnel? Have you ever heard of the Spruce Goose?

Actually, the Spruce Goose DID fly, just not very high. The point holds, a wave tank or a wind tunnel will at least demonstrate if the vessel in question is worth pursuing at all.

Rich, maybe in money, but certainly not in wood. There is very little wood in that region.

It is a mistake to imagine that the landscape has been unchanged for 6,000 years. Many areas of the world were forested in teh past which are now barren. Lebanon was famous for its Cedar at one point. We know that the people of Mesopotamia built wooden barges for river transport. Where do you think that wood came from?**

So anyway, the point is still, why would people, if they were in a wooded region, drag hundreds of tons up a mountain to make a barn, as he suggested. Let’s stick with the issue.

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Patrick Ashley

“For those who believe, no evidence is necessary; for those who don’t believe, no evidence is enough.” -Unknown

[manhattan]

[quote]
Originally posted by Spiritus Mundi:
**

We know that the people of Mesopotamia built wooden barges for river transport. Where do you think that wood came from?**

So that’s what they did with the Ark! Guess they hadn’t invented preservationists yet. Pity.

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[tomndebb]

Just a couple of quick points:

So those silly engineers at Boeing using wind tunnels on SCALE MODEL AIRCRAFT are just wasting their time. Oh, ok

Wind tunnel tests (and their equivalent hydrodynamic test for ships) are used to test the eficiency of the vessel shapes in a fluid. They do not test the structural reliability of the models, (which tend to be carved of solid wood or shaped with various plastics).

Rich, maybe in money, but certainly not in wood. There is very little wood in that region.

“Of course this underscores YOUR ignorance of the flora of that part of the world.”

Pat, you are aware that what was originally known as the fertile crescent is very much a desert, now, due to the excess salinity from 6,000 years of irrigation? And that there were a number of forests that have been logged off (with such unnatural disasters as goat herding preventing re-forestation in many areas)?

If you’re saying that this thread is pointless, I’ll refer you to the other 150-some other posts that beg to differ.

You may want to note that pointless is not exclusive of amusing. Not everyone (perhaps no one) believes that we are going to arrive at a point.

Very cute. And your history of this religion is how many minutes?

Even as a long-standing Catholic, I am aware that the religion of the Invisible Pink Unicorn is rather older than a few minutes.

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Tom~

[tdn]

Originally posted by pashley:
What i am doing is challenging those who feel the Bible is just a dusty old book that’s been revised three thousand times, and has not a shred of (at least) historical truth in it, to at least allow that yes, the Bible could have some historical truth in it.

If the Ark that was described in the book of Noah came to be found, high on a mountain, how would they reconcile that? That’s the only challenge i was making.

Oh, OK. My bad. But if you are asking people’s opinions on this, why are you challenging them, even to the point of calling them idiots? Opinions is opinions.

You asked how the Ark could have gotten on top of the mountain if there was no flood. I answered. Your reply?

why don’t you try to keep your ill-informed notions of what Christianity is about to yourself?

Making me ill-informed, even though you don’t know the first thing about me.

Read the OP once again. No, wait, don’t. You’ve answered. You’ve said, to paraphrase, that the story of Noah and fact that the Ark is there is just a coincidence.

Putting words in my mouth.

Get your head out of the sand.

Implying that I’m close minded.

OK, understandable, since my 1st post was somewhat confrontational. Let’s wipe the slate clean, and start over, shall we? If there was no great flood, how did the Ark get up the mountain?

a) It was dragged or lifted up there. b) It was flown up there, somehow or other. c) God put it there, though I have no idea why. d) It was some sort of sorcery. e) What was once a sea bed is now a mountain.

In none of those cases is the story of Noah supported, nor does it prove that anything in the Bible is true (not to say that the entire book is 100% false, just that this particular story is so far unsupported).

If the case is indeed c), then, yes, it would change my views on religion.

And Pat, since you asked the question, what would be your answer?

[Ben]

Originally posted by pashley:
** Ben, go back to the OP. I stated “what if”. It’s up to you to take it from there.
**

Argh! That’s my point- the whole point of this thread is to argue over “what if.” If there’s real evidence for creationism, then present it in the “strut your stuff” thread. If there’s no evidence for creationism, then evidence doesn’t matter to you, so why pretend that evidence would matter if it really existed?

-Ben

[Spiritus_Mundi]

The point holds, a wave tank or a wind tunnel will at least demonstrate if the vessel in question is worth pursuing at all.

The point which holds is that your knowledge of aerospace engineering practices is on a par with you knowledge of ancient history, which is to say insuficient to allow you to form convincing arguments.

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The best lack all conviction
The worst are full of passionate intensity.
*