Suppose someone had a religious conversion but it had substantive positive effects. Would you say that would be a good thing. For instance suppose someone lived a debaunched life that included irresponsible sexual behaviour and heavy drug use and also effectively was a parasite to the economy by not contributing to it however due to his conversion he got a normal job and acted more within the norms of society.
Bully for him. It still doesn’t mean that any part of the religion is actually true. We know these kinds of things happen, but they happen with all religions.
Ultimately,faith is about . . . well, faith, not proof. You get a strong placebo effect even in double blind clinical trials for new drugs - and that doesn’t evoke anywhere near the same kind of emotional response as religion. Frankly I’d be surprised if you DIDN’T get those kinds of anecdotes.
Even so, I have to say that I do envy people who have a strong faith. I’m a confirmed agnostic, but I can still see the appeal of religion.
What if it didn’t?
The fact that his attitudes were changed is a good thing, but it doesn’t say anything about whether religion itself is good, bad, or neutral; ODing on heroin and getting AIDS might change his attitudes as well and I don’t think very many people would say that ODing and AIDS are good things even though they might happen to have a good result.
I’m sure you can come up with many other events that would change someone for the better regardless of whether the events themselves would be deemed good, bad, or neutral.
Such a person has not made up for anything and we should hate him forever. People in the new religion should shun him. We shouldn’t associate with someone like that.
I know a guy who was once much as you describe. He turned his life around after converting to Islam. Knowing this, do you now acknowledge that there is no God but Allah and Muhammad is his prophet? If so, why? If not, why not?
I’m kidding, of course. My allegiance to Thor and Athena cannot be shaken.
Usually such people are insufferable evangelists, and it doesn’t even have to be about religion. I grew up in the 60s and 70s, and I can’t count the number of people who went around proclaiming that Pot or LSD Was The Answer To Everything, and that if we all just got high enough, and stayed high enough, that all the world’s problems would be solved. There are people who believe that certain philosophies are the one cure for everything, and that all people should apply these philosophies.
In my experience, the conversion does not wipe out whatever the person has done in the past (though it might alter present and future behavior) and it doesn’t really result in a personality change, as such. A conversion might alter how a person expresses his/her preferences and tastes, but if a person was a jerk before, s/he’s almost certainly a jerk after the conversion.
I would say if that happened to a person it was more likely that person need structure in his/her life and religion provided it.
One thing about drug users is they tend to be people that can be easily led. The more they get into drugs the easier it is to keep them stringing them along.
This is why when you go into drug rehabs and such, you don’t sit around all day, you have to do things as well as dry out and get counseling. Gettting up at a certain time, washing, eating, doing “meaningless activities” like puzzels, crafts etc, all teach you about routine and structure.
Religion often provides that. One doesn’t have to think “should I do this or that.” It’s provided for them.
And that sounds negative but it isn’t necessarily so.
I recall I knew a guy who was a director of catering at a large hotel. His name was Norm and he had a dictatorial admin. He’d come out of his office and talk and all of a sudden Cheryl would appear and announce “What do you think you’re doing?” Norm would say “ah talking.” She’d say “And how is gossiping with a bunch of women gonna get that work I put on your desk done. Do you expect me to cover for you when you’re not even trying to do what you’re paid to do.”
And Norm would kind of lower his head and go back into his office and do his work. Now in pretty much any other place that admin would be fired, but Norm needed that kind of regimted structure by a bossy admin to get his work done.
So the structure and regiment provided by a religion or any other group (such as a military unit) may be just what some people need.
What if someone joins a neonazi group and it has substantial positive effects…for him?
Religion in my view is foolish and destructive; if someone converts they become just one more soldier for the causes of cruelty, ignorance and madness regardless of whether or not they personally benefit. Especially when they are such a true believer that they undergo a major change in their personality and behavior.
What if cows could fly?
Listen Curtis, I don’t say what you describe can’t happen; I’m sure it does, just as I’m sure converting, or having a religious epiphany which is akin to conversion, can and does cause the opposite, such as leading a life judging others, participating in activities that harm their fellow man, and promoting ignorance, subjugation, racism, xenophobia, and preemptive war, all in the name of their deity, and supported by the infrastructure and tenets of their faith and church, and the warped interpretation of their religious texts.
My point is what’s your point?
It would be doing the right thing for the wrong reason.l
Yes, it’s like shooting Hitler because you think his mustache is an alien mind control parasite out to conquer Earth; the target may deserve it, but your premise is still loony and it’s really only luck that your lunacy drove you to kill an evil man and not a good one.
As a former drug user, I resemble that remark (yuk, yuk, yuk).
I did know a guy who found Jesus in a dime bag of 3,4 methdioxy-amphetamine (similar to X) - not sure how that worked out though.
Based on MY personal experience, this is usually the case. I have never seen someone convert and become a worse person. I’ve seen the bad people in religion, but they were, as Lynn says, already bad people to begin with, and are actually better than they were.
I’d say that, even from an atheistic viewpoint, a non-bigoted religion can be and often is a very positive thing. The majority of people I know who are Christians are happy people. The majority of atheists I know are cynical skeptics who are occasionally happy. I’m not saying there aren’t depressed Christians out there, but there seem to be a lot more depressed atheists.
Of course, I’m not going to generalize my anecdotes. That would be illogical. And while logic often goes out the window here when religion is brought up, I don’t want to be one of those people who prejudges entire groups of people.
For many people, becoming ‘other directed’ rather than self-directed is an improvement.
This is the start and end of it right here: Some people just aren’t competent to manage their own lives, either ever or for a limited period of time. Twelve-step programs are explicitly based around the second concept, while Abrahamic religions are based around the first to the extent people take them seriously and try to apply all the rules in the Book all the time.
My view is that it’s possible to allow people to be ‘other directed’ without the mythological nonsense involved with religion.
That’s a really good way of putting it. You can do a lot worse than trying to love your God, love yourself, and love your neighbour. Maybe religion is like almost everything else; it’s best taken in moderation.
Exactly.
IMHO the worst thing about religion is that the only opportunity we have in our existence to create joy and alleviate suffering is through the choices we make, which are our reactions to the world around us that is exposed or revealed to us. Religion interferes in the process by corrupting the perception we have of the world around us, so we make choices based on bad information. No doubt, this will sometimes inadvertently move us from a worse choice to a better one, but if we are good at making choices it will more often do the opposite. Would we say it is a good thing, if people make better choices by mistake? Well, gee, I guess so - but what an odd question!