What Is "Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion", and Is It a Good Thing?

I do believe that a “correlation does not equal causation” was mentioned (and a “but maybe, if we look at the actual research, it goes beyond that.”)

Anyways, first from first, it is. First study reference is “Diversity Matters” from 2015. Here’s the link:

I see, on the 2nd page, a table that explains the “Herfindahl–Hirschman index for diversity” that explains some underlying math to score businesses within their industry and it continues on to say (p 3), “The companies in the top quartile for gender diversity were 15 percent more likely to have financial returns that were above their national industry median”. That is to say, we’re comparing businesses to other businesses within their same industry.

That helps us to reduce the risk of issues like rural vs urban, tech vs agg, etc. We’re comparing apples to apples, not apples to oranges.

However, they point out that ethnic diversity seems to matter more than gender. A 35% boost vs 15%. That may point, at least in part, to our other alternate hypothesis that what we’re seeing is a side-effect of scaling. As you grow, you need more people and you start to recruit globally.

One of our leading theories for why diversity matters is the ability to understand the customer. A man can sell better to men and a woman can sell better to women, since they understand what things do and don’t appeal to that class. Most multi-national businesses are still largely focused on their domestic market. Having more Latinos doesn’t help you to understand your customer if you’re producing toaster ovens in Mexico but selling them in the USA, for example. You’re a multi-national company but not a multi-marketplace company. Whereas, understanding women helps you no matter what. They’re half of every single marketplace that you could be in.

Under that lens, we would probably expect the difference to be reversed from what the numbers are telling us. It also seems a bit questionable that the only way to perform market research is to hire the market and promote them to the top. Do we need to hire country bumpkins and make them VPs? Somehow, businesses seem to have figured out how to target the lowest common denominator while staffing smart people.

A second big hypothesis for “why” diversity would help a business to succeed, which has been proposed in the thread, points to a positive outcome of tribalism. If you’re a Democrat and you’re on a team with a Republican, you’re going to feel more competitive, work harder, and bust your butt to show up that other a-hole. If you’re white then, apparently, you’re going to be racist and more competitive with darker folks than you would be if the other person was also white (?).

Now…that theory be as it may, we’re just going to accept it at face value since a) I’m not the one who proposed it and, b) at the end of the day, reality will or won’t demonstrate itself through the scientific method. We don’t need to rule things in or out based on how we feel about them.

Under this theory, the numbers would seem to say that we’re more racist than we are sexist.

To be sure, genocidal movements have largely been racial. Colonialist-era slavery was racial. But the most consistent and durable class-distinguisher through history was between men and women. In the US, property rights, voting rights, etc. all came for ethnic minorities before women. In my own experience, I feel like people are more likely to complain about having a female boss than one of a different skin color.

I’m a bit skeptical that there is such a difference in the quantity of racism versus sexism, let alone that the lean towards one over the other is so extreme as to lead to a 15% versus 35% difference in business size. I’m also skeptical that racism and sexism are so prevalent among the workers of the larger - probably more urban - workforce. And I’m skeptical that the magnitude of the effect of tribalism would be so large and so positive for a company.

We can look at the studies that address this more but, for the moment, I’m not leaning towards this hypothesis.

The third DEI hypothesis is that people from different backgrounds just bring more novel ideas, since they’re attacking problems from new and interesting angles.

Plausibly, that could explain what we see. For every man that grew up in a white, suburban household in America, there’s also a woman who grew up in that same situation. Their backgrounds are differentiated by gender but not by education, income level, location, etc. Whereas, a minority might have been more likely to have been raised in a poor neighborhood with bad teachers, might have inherited a somewhat different outlook, based on the cultural learnings of the place that their parents came from (e.g. Tibet). We might suppose that there’s a larger differentiator between ethnicities than genders.

That said, in my experience, most people don’t bring anything to the table. If you collect 15 people in a room and say, “Let’s brainstorm business ideas.” There will be one or two people who contribute 90% of the ideas and the remainder are almost nothing.

I bought stock in an Indian company in 1997, because I read an article about tech outsourcing to India. I thought, “There’s a billion and a half Indians. If the definition of a genius is the top 2% of people on an IQ test, then that’s 30 million people. The US only has 6 million. There’s five times more of them and they’re cheaper.”

I grew up in a rougher territory. We fought, punched, and kicked each other at my school, when I was a little kid. My friends went out to hunt with their dads for deer and rattlesnake, to help stretch their food budget. Now, if you put me in a room with other people who are all from the city and suburbs and ask for business ideas, I’ll throw them out by the dozen. Is that because I’m from redneck central or because I’m just a clever bastard? Well, let me go ask the gas station attendant from my hometown and see whether he’s got much to throw in. Probably not.

A common bit of advise to people who have some idea for a new product is that they should tell people about it. By default, we want to keep our great new product a secret, patent the idea, keep it from getting out there and being copied. But that’s not an actual problem, in the real world, because the problem isn’t usually in coming up with ideas and products, it’s in having the manpower and the force of will to see that idea through to production and sales. All you need for ideas is to throw a couple of clever bastards in a room for an hour every few years. It’s not a problem.

The third hypothesis sounds good but, in my experience and based on how my stock did, I think that the main thing you get by opening yourself up to women, Indians, Chinese, Brazilians, etc. is that you gain access to a larger talent pool and - often - a cheaper one.

It matches the numbers but I don’t know that I’d call it DEI.

Ideally, the research would discount immigrant workers. Otherwise, you’re basically just counting headcount and labor prices.

This is like defending the way thigs were. But really, this does imply that any cooperation does depend on racism. The point here is that the competition is geared in a company to benefit all, Men, Women, White or Black, this point here sounds a lot like when black people suggested the idea to open the communal swimming pool to black families and get more revenue to the local business after the end of Jim Crow. The mostly white members suggested to ignore profit or benefit to all whites and blacks and close the pool to all. The recommended last item by the majority of whites prevailed. Yeah, even if it affected their bottom line or inconvenienced them too…

And that is what a straw argument looks like. While that may be a criticism of early studies, the one we are supposed to be talking about is not about that.

This sounds a lot as finding excuses to keep things the way they are. As I pointed before, if the critics studies may had found that that there was a significant negative result for implementing DEI recommendations, then the critics could have a case.

As it is, other reports and studies point to the one we are talking here as being more accurate, and it is more likely that minding DEI does significantly help the bottom lines of companies.

Mark Cuban recently took a stand for DEI initiatives via a social media post, in response to Elon Musk’s remarks that equated DEI to “racism,” reported Business Insider.

Cuban, a staunch advocate of DEI, contends that these initiatives help companies tap into undiscovered talent. He argues that without DEI, individuals of varied racial, ethnic, and orientation backgrounds may be bypassed during recruitment. “Good businesses look where others don’t, to find the employees that will put your business in the best possible position to succeed,” Cuban said.

“The loss of DEI-Phobic companies is my gain,” Cuban wrote.

So, how it is going at Xitter and Tesla after Elon got rid of a lot of the DEI efforts? One would think that Spacex would show one exception under Elon’s rule, but the buzz there is that there is a lot of shady things going on.

Thank you for replying (sorry I’ve been away from the boards for a few days). I ended up finding a lot more information by searching for “employee resource group” and “affinity group”. If anyone else is interested, I found this document answered most of the followup questions I had about potential legal issues with resource groups:

~Max

(This is the 2023 McKinsey & Co. study.)

I don’t see where they claim diversity causes profitability. It claims a randomly selected company has an increased likelihood of above average profitability if it is rated more diverse by the author’s standards. Maybe you read this as a causal relationship, by mistake, but I am 100% sure McKinsey & Co. is not claiming diversity causes profitability. They say so explicitly, anticipating @Sage_Rat’s criticism from post #42:

McKinsey & Co., 2023 report, Methodology section, p. 49:
“Correlation is not causation, and we are not asserting causal links. As with many levers of business performance, particularly at such a high level, causation would be challenging to demonstrate, likely requiring detailed longitudinal studies. […] Also, we cannot definitively say what drives the correlations we find. It is theoretically possible that financial outperformance enables companies to achieve greater levels of diversity. […] However, in practice this seems unlikely.”

I personally find Sage_Rat’s other alternative explanation most plausible,

Which would be consistent with grouping equity and inclusion together with diversity. Lipstick on a pig and all that. If management isn’t equitable and inclusive, i.e. racist and sexist management, then diversity should be negatively correlated with profitability. Samples of titans of industry, such as used for the McKinsey studies, probably underrepresent this style of management because it doesn’t scale well. I could find anecdotes of founding CEOs being driven out for sexist or racist management after the company becomes successful - but I’m sure we can agree on that point.

~Max

Immigration status has nothing to do with it, especially since the study deals with multi-national firms. The key word is executive, that is, decision making power. The 2015 report you cited based its diversity ratings on “top management and boards” (“Top management teams were as defined in company websites, and included positions from the C-suite to senior vice presidents”). This is given on page 2 of the PDF you linked.

The 2023 McKinsey & Co. report also anticipated this criticism by rating companies based on C-3 and up. I encourage you to read its methodology section.

~Max

Indeed, the issue I see is about likelihoods. Like good scientists, this has a lot to do with what is likely, and as they said:

One thing to notice here is that it was you who claimed that I was talking about just profitability, not really, the point there was outperformance, it doesn’t mean maximizing a business, but maximizing its opportunities. But even that profitable item was not my point, The reason why I pointed at that page in the report was that you claimed that it must be profits (that was Dr. Strangelove), but that was not an absolute, it was just a likely thing, as they reported. And I also pointed that:

Outperformance is defined as above-average profitability.

~Max

Again, not my point, and not an absolute.

My main point here is that even the most critical study that was used as a counter, had to conclude that there was no way to deny that in some cases Diversity was beneficial.

Point was that I see that, and unless one can show that there was a significant negative effect to applying diversity, that then I’m not so jaded about “profitability”. When at worst DEI does not affect the bottom line. And when at best, it actually does help.

Which study are you referring to now?

~Max

Post #116 From Stanislaus.

Where do the authors admit “there is no way to deny that in some cases Diversity was beneficial”?

I only see cautious language. They don’t actually admit the above. Example,

“First, while our results do not rule out the possibility that under some circumstances or in some time periods greater executive racial/ethnic diversity may be economically beneficial to firms […]”

Just like the McKinsey & Co. report they speculate that a longitudinal study could resolve the question one way or another.

ETA:

I recognize we have different perspectives in this side-discussion. I’m looking for evidence that DEI is beneficial, particular to this tangent whether DEI training and policies have economic benefits. (I’ve read some anecdotal evidence in this thread, but not from the studies you cited.) You are asserting there is no evidence that diversity is harmful.

~Max

Yes, because, lets face it, the big implication is that for most of the important critics out there, is that they do believe that diversity is harmful to the bottom line.

As other research I pointed out before, the evidence is that this is not being harmful at all, and that it is likely to be beneficial.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/357496494_Exploring_the_correlation_between_diversity_and_financial_performance_an_empirical_study

Abstract
Although a myriad of studies has been conducted on workforce diversity issues, only a handful of studies have examined the correlation between diversity-related values and the financial performance of companies. This study examines this relationship by testing the extent to which diversity-related values are correlated with the financial performance of publicly traded companies using companies listed on the New York Stock Exchange. Companies were grouped into primary, secondary, and tertiary sectors for the analysis. The findings reveal that the diversity value dimension Exploring the correlation between diversity and financial performance 207 is positively correlated with companies’ financial performance. No significant differences were found between the commitment to diversity value dimension and the three sectors. Implications of these findings and future research directions are discussed.

Of course, the conclusion is the normal: more research needed, etc, hence my position that unless better evidence shows against it, or that this is harmful, that then DEI is better to be encouraged (**) rather than banned.

Of course, then one has to begin to ponder why is that the same groups that discouraged CRT and black history or other efforts for minorities to get more representation, are the same as the ones that assume bad results or mislead others about DEI.

** Notice that this is not a law or an obligation, most of the ones against this just tell others that this is a forced imposition or worse.

What research are you talking about now? I don’t recall you citing any studies that claim diversity is not harmful at all.

I’m making nuances that you haven’t acknowledged yet. I read two studies claiming diversity is correlated with profitability and one study criticizing that claim. I read zero studies providing evidence for the claim that diversity is likely to be (economic) beneficial. (Did I miss the cite?) I read three studies which speculate a longitudinal study could test that hypothesis, but none of them actually did such a test. Not even McKinsey & Co. has followed the same companies over a decade, instead they opted to do new samples for each report.


I know you’re talking about diversity as something to be measured in a company. But my primary concern which goes back to the OP, which you have not to my knowledge addressed, is that even if diversity is beneficial that says nothing about DEI programs and policies. Nobody is trying to outlaw diversity. People are retaliating at DEI initiatives.

As late as 2009 there were no studies testing the effect of diversity training. By far the most helpful citation I’ve come across on that question was Dr.Strangelove’s from post #7, a Harvard Business Review article about this 2015 study from American Sociological Review (n=816, U.S. based). That is in fact a longitudinal study, except it measured diversity in relation to concrete DEI initiatives rather than profitability.

"[…] we find that reforms that engage managers in recruiting and training women and minorities promote diversity […]
"[…] we find that reforms that control hiring managers’ discretion have adverse effects […]
"[…] we find reforms that increase transparency concerning job opportunities and eligibility promote equity […]
“[…] we find that diversity managers and regulatory monitoring activate accountability in hiring managers […]”

~Max

What we are seeing now in Texas is the result of many claiming that it is definitely harmful. That is what we are dealing here. My point is simple, the harm is about critics doing very uncalled moves against diversity (and it does include women) by assuming beforehand that this is not good for business.

Yes.

(PDF) Exploring the correlation between diversity and financial performance: an empirical study (researchgate.net)

The findings reveal that the diversity value dimension Exploring the correlation between diversity and financial performance 207 is positively correlated with companies’ financial performance.

But, again, not the main point.

It occurred to me that even making a business case for diversity (as you and your cites have done in this very thread) might be harmful in the broader sense of the word, and I quickly found evidence to back this up. This 2022 paper surveyed job seekers’ anticipated sense of belonging after showing them that a company had adopted DEI policies because they thought it would be profitable, versus fair:

“pairwise comparisons revealed that female job seekers in the business case condition anticipated significantly greater rejection in the organization […] than their counterparts in the fairness case condition […]”

“As predicted, pairwise comparisons revealed that STEM women in the business case condition anticipated significantly greater rejection […] relative to their counterparts in the control condition […]”

"Pairwise comparisons revealed that African Americans randomly assigned to the business case condition anticipated significantly greater rejection […] compared to their counterparts in the control case condition […]

~Max

Acknowledging this is not your main point (and refuting it is not my main point)…

This 2022 study published in IJBPM does not provide evidence that diversity is likely to be economically beneficial. They took almost 250 random companies from the NYSE, looked up the corporate diversity statements, rated their commitment to diversity, and compared that against two and five year profit statements. The study specifically notes that the positive correlations uncovered were not statistically significant. The main takeaway was another aspect of the study, showing that most corporations have a diversity statement.

~Max

I disagree, but if you want to discuss Texas legislation specifically I invite you to create a spin-off thread.

~Max

This is why there are no absolutes here, as much as some would like.

In any case, these are psychologists in that cite, it is likely that some can be affected, but this is not much related to the economic wellbeing of companies, it actually points at bad DEI efforts where the owners and management still have a lot of the blame.

As the authors in the paper you cite mention:

In so doing, this paper advances an emerging body of research recognizing the crucial role that organization-level cues may play in shaping underrepresented groups experiences at work.

IOW, sounds a lot like researchers that in the past the orgs that report on the papers are the ones making very click bait like titles or summaries that in reality are not quite what the research is about. This looks more as research that points at results one can find when management is not bothering to see if they are doing this right.

Again, this manufactroversy is not happening a vacuum, as much as you would want.