Equality of opportunity is an impossible ideal but we must try to approximate to it the best way we can.
Equality of reward -that’s a different matter. As a woman I support equal pay for equal work. I don’t though believe in equality of reward in the sense of equality of possessions, wealth or whatever.
He sounds like a right-winger who’s exploiting the fallacy of the excluded middle. He’s defining “equality” as something so extreme that no one would argue in favor of it. And if “equality” is something so extreme as to be ludicrous, then clearly our only rational choice is “liberty”.
But, of course, even hard-core Communists didn’t argue for everyone getting exactly the same thing. They followed the principle of “From each according to his ability, to each according to his need.”
His argument is silly. You could just as easily say that real “liberty” can only exist if we do away with ALL restrictions on individual behavior. The result would be anarchy, so the only rational course of action is to oppose “liberty”.
Of course we’re talking about history. It seems like you do think we’re just lucky enough to be the first generation to live in a perfectly equal, post-historical world. Don’t you think it’s more likely that there’s discrimination going on all the time, same as there’s literally always been, only, just like every other generation before this one, most of us would rather focus on the inequalities that have been "solved’ in the recent past and pretend that was the final battle in the war? Oh, I can have any job I want, and all I used to be able to do was work on a farm – end of racial discrimination. Only people said the same thing after the Civil War. Then they said the same thing during the Civil Rights era. They said the same thing about gender discrimination when women got the right to vote. Every generation that makes any strides at all toward combating inequality is going to get the impression that it’s finally accomplished equality.
Anyway, even if you’re right that discrimination doesn’t happen all the time anymore (even though it does), how do you suppose we got from there to here? You’re arguing that the government shouldn’t properly have anything to say about the value of your labor. But since you’re also asking what’s stopping anybody today from taking his labor elsewhere – what’s changed? What made it so that a racial minority in 2011 has better control over his labor value than back then in “history”?
[QUOTE=Jimmy Chitwood]
Of course we’re talking about history. It seems like you do think we’re just lucky enough to be the first generation to live in a perfectly equal, post-historical world. Don’t you think it’s more likely that there’s discrimination going on all the time, same as there’s literally always been, only, just like every other generation before this one, most of us would rather focus on the inequalities that have been "solved’ in the recent past and pretend that was the final battle in the war? Oh, I can have any job I want, and all I used to be able to do was work on a farm – end of racial discrimination. Only people said the same thing after the Civil War. Then they said the same thing during the Civil Rights era. They said the same thing about gender discrimination when women got the right to vote. Every generation that makes any strides at all toward combating inequality is going to get the impression that it’s finally accomplished equality.
Anyway, even if you’re right that discrimination doesn’t happen all the time anymore (even though it does), how do you suppose we got from there to here? You’re arguing that the government shouldn’t properly have anything to say about the value of your labor. But since you’re also asking what’s stopping anybody today from taking his labor elsewhere – what’s changed? What made it so that a racial minority in 2011 has better control over his labor value than back then in “history”?
[/QUOTE]
You misunderstand. I’m not saying that discrimination ‘doesn’t happen all the time anymore’. It DOES happen…all the time. It happened more in the past than it does today, and who gets discriminated against varies over time and from region to region, but it certainly still happens today. Basically, we are moving towards better and more pervasive ‘equality’, but we haven’t gotten there yet. But the point is, your labor is a resource that you own…you can choose to sell it to a buyer at Company A, or one at Company B. It’s your choice.
The reality may very well be that your labor, if you are a woman or a minority of some kind that people may discriminate against you…which means they will attempt to buy your labor for less than it might be worth (certainly to you), or they may choose to not buy it at all. What that means in practical terms is that you will have to either sell your labor for less than you think it’s worth (or find another buyer if they aren’t buying at all) or take it somewhere else it might be worth more to another buyer.
But here’s the thing…how can you force someone to buy your labor at a price they don’t think it’s worth? Even if the reason they think it is because they are prejudiced scumbags making decisions based on bias and bigotry? You can’t. All you can do is make a real world assessment of what your labor is worth and if you are unsatisfied with what the buyer is offering try and take it to a buyer willing to buy your labor at something more on par with what you think it’s worth.
The point of all of the above hot air is to attempt to explain why I don’t believe in the concept of equality of pay (there are other reasons I think that it’s impractical in the real world). I think that equality is all about equality under the law…everyone, regardless of sex, religion, ‘race’ or social standing/wealth should be treated equally under the law. That’s the goal anyway, and I hope something we continue to strive for as a society. Equal rights, equal laws. Anything else you need to earn for yourself. If you have to face an uphill struggle, well, that’s part of life. Life isn’t fair. All we can do is try and even the playing field as much as possible and then allow people to do what they will.
-XT
Of course one can. Minimum wage laws are only one of many examples. You don’t think one should.
I’ve actually heard a number of people suggest that sort of definition to me, and they’re usually legitimate socialists. I’ve had more than a couple conversations with people who honestly believed everyone should receive identical housing and compensation regardless of their occupation or, in fact, lack thereof. Personally, I strongly disagree with the idea that liberty and equality cannot co-exist; in fact, I think liberty is required for equality to exist. If anything coercive enforcement of equality ends up creating the opposite problem that those who support it assert that it fixes.
Equality poses a difficult task, however, as humans are inherently not equal. So, to me, it means making a concerted effort to ignore non-factors or minimal factors in a particular situation and addressing only the ones of that matter. To this end, things like race, gender, religion, and orientation are almost always non-factors, though some of them do have correlation with legitimate ones. For instance, consider a man and a woman applying for a job that involves significant physical labor. The gender itself is a non-factor, as though men are stronger on average, statistics mean nothing as it only matters about the attributes of those two particular candidates which may or may not fall along their gender’s average characteristics.
But two people serving the same job don’t necessarily deserve equal compensation. Plenty of other legitimate factors go into compensation like experience, seniority, education. To not consider those things has the aforementioned opposite effect of not appropriately rewarding a person for additional effort and, thus, resulting in discrimination against those factors.
I don’t think equality inherently means everyone gets access to things like health care or education unless it is something that society provides in general which, of course, most modern societies do provide, and so everyone should be given roughly equal access.
That’s equality of outcome, taken to an extreme degree - hell, even the Communists wouldn’t have argued that if you’re admitted into medical school, then I should be too.
So given that your co-worker is towards the right end of the political spectrum, I think he’s just using this definition as a strawman to slam equality in general.
So in his view, does said university have 300M students (I assume you’re in America)?
Sure, you can’t get to absolutely equal opportunity without imposing equality of outcomes, because one generation’s variation in outcomes are the next generation’s variations in starting points.
But saying “there isn’t much you can do about” unequal opportunity is bullshit. We’re already doing a great deal about it (e.g. providing K-12 education for all), and we used to do more, in terms of making college available and affordable to those who could benefit from it. We can’t achieve equality of opportunity, but we can certainly do a great deal as a society to reduce the degree of inequality.
I don’t think he’s quite that far out of touch with reality, but if I understood what he was saying, equality demands that every applicant for a given school is equally entitled to be accepted. Not that he himself believes this should be the case, but that those who demand equality think this is the way it should be.
Honestly, it didn’t take the conversation long to become convoluted and a little snarky because pretty much everyone else disagreed with his assertion. The vast majority viewed the term equality to mean equal protection, equal rights, and fair treatment in general. And judging by his responses to challenging questions, I don’t think he was just trolling - I’m pretty sure he was convinced of his argument and he didn’t understand how we could not agree.
[QUOTE=MrDibble]
Of course one can. Minimum wage laws are only one of many examples. You don’t think one should.
[/QUOTE]
Should doesn’t come into it…and just FTR I’m not totally opposed to minimum wage laws. However, that sets a MINIMUM wage (obviously), but doesn’t necessarily reflect what a person thinks their labor is worth. Also, wage alone isn’t everything…benefits also make up the complex equation when selling ones labor to the highest bidder.
So, no…I don’t believe one can ‘force someone to buy your labor at a price they don’t think it’s worth’, merely set some minimums.
-XT
Hell, even then an employer can decide that another drone isn’t worth what minimum wage demands. Instead he can just decide not to hire one and instead to jimmy the schedule until all the other wage slaves are working 39.5 hours a week with no benefits.
[QUOTE=RTFirefly]
But saying “there isn’t much you can do about” unequal opportunity is bullshit. We’re already doing a great deal about it (e.g. providing K-12 education for all), and we used to do more, in terms of making college available and affordable to those who could benefit from it. We can’t achieve equality of opportunity, but we can certainly do a great deal as a society to reduce the degree of inequality.
[/QUOTE]
I disagree that any of those things have made opportunity more equal. Again, FTR I’m not opposed to such measures and think that a lot of them do good (I’d be a hypocrite if I said otherwise considering that much of my education was paid for by grants for being a Hispanic). But realistically I didn’t have the same opportunities that my kids had, and by far I had MUCH greater opportunities than the members of my family who didn’t come to the US or who stayed in the old neighborhood had or have. As a society you can try to mitigate that to an extent, but it’s simply human nature and it will always be with us.
-XT
I’m having a hard time following you.
You went to college because you were granted money based on the fact that you were a member of a historically disadvantaged ethnicity, and your kids have had greater opportunities than you had (presumably at least in part because they had a parent who went to college), but you don’t agree that there’s anything the government can do to increase equality of opportunity? How about giving grants to disadvantaged groups, for instance?
Your kids have better opportunities than you, and you had better ones than your parents, because why exactly? That seems pretty relevant to a conversation about equality of opportunity to me. Which of this is the part that’s just human nature?
[QUOTE=Jimmy Chitwood]
I’m having a hard time following you.
[/QUOTE]
Yes, I can see that. Unfortunately, I don’t know how to say what I’ve said any plainer than I’ve already said it.
Did that give me the same opportunities as Bill Gates kids will have? Um…no. It didn’t. It helped me out, and as I’ve said I’m all for it, but it didn’t equalize opportunities…it merely enhanced my own very limited opportunities. Those aren’t the same things, and I’m truly puzzled as to why this is so difficult to grasp. It must be me though, since you aren’t the only one who doesn’t seem to grasp what I’m getting at here.
Why? Well, because my parents moved to the US for a start. And because I (and my folks) left the old neighborhood and did more with what was available. And that’s all great…but it didn’t equalize my opportunities with, say, a middle class family or those of a wealthy or rich family. NOTHING is going to do that…it’s not possible.
How do YOU think that me getting grants from the government and loans due to military service equalizes my opportunities with those of, say, Bill Gates kids? They have traveled to Europe, have access to the finest education, have access to travel and experience that no matter what I’ll do I’ll NEVER have…nor will my children. By the same token, I have cousins, and even aunts and uncles who still live in Mexico or still live in our old neighborhood who will NEVER have the opportunities that I have had, or that my children have. You can’t legislate ‘equal opportunity’…it’s not possible. What we as a society can do is to help out those who’s opportunities are severely limited with assistance so that, in theory they COULD have BETTER opportunities than they would have had otherwise. And, again, I’m not opposed to that. I just don’t think it equalizes anything.
-XT
If one believes the employee’s worth is less than minimum wage then yes, one is forced.
Ditto with those labour laws that set fixed prices for chartered services (don’t know if you have those in the US, but here, engineering and other professional fees can be set by the government)
You think there’d be no greater inequality of opportunity if we abolished public education??
WTF?!
[QUOTE=MrDibble]
If one believes the employee’s worth is less than minimum wage then yes, one is forced.
[/QUOTE]
Well, the person selling their labor is free to take it to someone else who would pay more, but overall yeah…obviously if someone has to take more than they think they are worth they are selling their labor at what they perceive as less than it’s worth.
That wasn’t the point I was trying to make there, though.
So, in South Africa the government sets the price of labor for categories of workers (if I’m reading this right). All engineers make the same thing? Or all engineers who have worked the same amount of time get the exact same pay?
That doesn’t seem very fair to me, if I’m understanding what you are getting at there correctly, but our definitions of ‘fair’ might be different.
[QUOTE=RTFirefly]
You think there’d be no greater inequality of opportunity if we abolished public education??
[/QUOTE]
So, you think that if we took all the wealth from all the rich people and used it in a landfill that this would somehow enable gay marriage?? WTF?? 
:eek::eek::eek:
(IOW, your WTF moment comes from making up some statement that I never said and then being all confused as to why I had said something so stupid)
All engineers in a broad category (I think there are four currently) are only allowed to charge a fixed hourly rate.
But if one is a salaried employee, one doesn’t see that whole rate anyway, so there might be variation within one’s company as to remuneration, not related to the (fixed) chargeout rate.
I think it’s safe to say they are *very *different.
My background is Asian. I immigranted to North America ( not to mention the country for any judgements ) 7 years ago, now a citizen of the country.When I was in high school in North America, it was during the SARS outbreak. A student walked by calling names, called me a word"SARS",made me was really upset.:smack: It’s like the most upset things in my life. 
But who can I call for help? What can I do? It’s when you feel really angry,isolated and despair. Make me think i’m really different from other people and not fit in. Now, I think this student it’s just some immature kids, but feelings are hard to heal. I always tried my best to fit in, whether in school,job, or social activies.I wish I can be like other native born North Americans, who can get a job easily, who can have lots of friends ,whose well known, or a leader. Teacher said I 'm a good student in my teacher’s eyes,I’m on time in class. I’m always the quiet one who sits and listen. I don’t skip classes. 
but was not liked by my college program placement teacher and workplace maybe because of my race and background, they decided I’m incapable to do the tasks, and marked me very low. I’m very dissapointed.In workplace, I’m always the last one to get a call for duty among the other native born employees. The truth is I tried my best and helped out but people don’t know me well usually like to judge. But ,at least I found a good summer job ,made some pocket money and most important thing is I met lots of friends and some North Amerian friends which make me feel really happy and relieved. It’s great to have friends from different background and American born friends. i think it’s really cool. 
In high school and college, most of students don’t talk to me maybe because I 'm not born here,i’m not sure. only when I approach them, they talk to me.I have spoken to concellor serveral times to improve my language skills ,seek resources and improve my social skills.On my placement, I did shadow an Educatinal Assistant teacher, heard that I was not shadowing EA all the time because I didn’t know there is a recess time I should follow her, no one told me. i got an lower mark that i’m not expected. Because of this, I have to waste money on co-op placement. When I apply for jobs, the companies don’t hire me because of my background think I lack English skills, only the workplace from my country hire me right away. But I admit most people in North America are nice and polite but still racial prejudice it’s existing. Voices need to be heard. Now I"m graduated from college, I feel more happy and confident and found a caucasian boyfriend make me feel better in life. 
-Any one who’d like to share their stories feel free to discuss.