I hope this is the right place for this thread. It is religious but I dont think it will go to a sided debate…
It is my understanding that Heaven is warm and perfect and once there you will be given all the answers to all of life’s great mysteries, past and present. I have a sneaking suspission that most of the rightious who’s primary goal is this final destination have not put that much thought into the reality of this “place”. Now let me ask a few questions to really simplify my point. Stright to the basics of everyday Heaven life. What would you do all day? I assume conversation would be quite pointless as you have nothing to learn from the other residents. Having all the answers sounds good but what is the point if there are no more questions? And if Heaven is the great goal of life that gives you the desire to go on, then what are we striving for in the great beyond? No goals, no future prospects and no surprises. Do we work? I assume not. Is our presence even relevant?
And now for the positives of the negatives. What kind of life can it be with no obstacles to overcome, no lessons to be leaned, no assistance needed, and none needed from you? It seems like a very lonely, boring and ultimatly pointless existance.
…mainly because there is a lot of conflicting opinion regarding heaven that might result in a debate.
IIRC, the Bible (my source of info regarding the nature of heaven) seems to indicate that heaven is a really, really nice place to be. Beyond that, any description of heaven is likely to be metaphor, simile, or some other contrivance to convey a sense of what something is like when there is nothing really like it to compare it to.
I suggest that there are foreshadowings of heaven right here on earth: making love; a hug from a child who’s happy to see you; lying snug in bed on a cold morning; helping someone else not because you have to, but because you care, etc. There are also foreshadowings of hell: waiting in line at any government bureaucracy; cutting yourself shaving; waiting to find out what that “shadow” they found on your chest x-ray really is, paper cuts, etc.
Heaven might be a reward or an incentive, but I don’t think I need to wait until I die to make a little more of it here, and try to eliminate a little hell as well (both for myself and others) while I’m waiting.
And how many hugs from children before it becomes meaningless? Heaven seems to be the definition of too much of any good thing is bad.
…and sorry if this is the wrong area for this thread and thought long and hard before I posted, but Im still new…
Don’t worry, MetropoChris, you’ll get the hang of it.
General Questions is for questions that have a definite scientific or historical answer. Things having to do with the afterlife are beyond human understanding, and therefore beyond the scope of this forum. Basically, if you have a philosophical or religious question beside something like “What does the Pope say about X” or sumsuch, it belongs in Great Debates.
MetroChris- No sweat. I never know where to put anything. All works out for the best though.
When you think about it…lying around on golden fluffy clouds…Heaven does seem dull. Would “God” let you smoke pot, or would that be immoral? Would you experience consequences for things (i.e., hangovers)? What happens if you do something bad in Heaven…do they whisk you away?
OK so I responded with more questions…
The thing about Heaven, though, is its probably overrated. When you anticipate something, it usually ends up not being THAT great. So if Heaven is one big huge wonderful moment, then eventually you’ll get bored. Familiarity breeds contempt, right?
So I agree: the little things are good…in real life too. Like when you arrive at school and get a class cancelled. Or a snow day. Or just a good moment…random and spontaneous. You need them dispersed. My problem with Heaven would be that its non stop happiness. You’re basically dead if you’re nothing but happy…(well OK…you’re dead if you’re in Heaven, but you know what I mean…)
Id be curious to see a reply of disagreement though. Often when I bring these thoughts up to those on a quest for “eternal happiness” such a realistic view of heaven doesnt want to be disussed. Fear of an empty “promise” I suppose…
I don’t particularly believe in heaven. It’s nice in theory but I have trouble enough believing in God, let alone the afterlife.
From my readings on Buddhism, and my awesome interaction with a Buddhist and a Tibetan monk, I find reincarnation makes the most sense to me. My viewpoint on life in general is that your goal is to be the best person possible - to reach your highest potential. I’m given problems, issues (some tiny, some overwhelming) and I have lessons to learn from them. In doing so, I struggle to reach a more fulfilling level of existence. I try to look back at the end of every day (I meditate) and recognize the good and bad things about what I did, if I learned anything, if I feel any different. I hope that at the end of my life, I’ll believe I have reached my goal.
Once a life is lived, I think the spirit, or soul, rests for a while (seriously, 3 years of sleep is my idea of heaven) and then moves to another body. Different lessons, different issues, a grander or lesser purpose. I don’t know whether certain souls move on, or if others are born to replace them. Perhaps if you are bad, then your soul simply dies. It reminds me of a quote from Hemingway - to paraphrase, he says that the world breaks us all, and often we are stronger in the broken places; if you are brave or strong or kind, the world will try harder to break you; if not, it will get to you eventually. Some pass through life with their eyes closed and exist with no purpose; those who find meaning and try to be good and learn from their mistakes or struggles move on and get another chance.
All of this is very tenuous, since I haven’t read enough about Buddhism or any other faith (I was Catholic by default) to reach a conclusion. But I try to follow my own instincts and beliefs than any dictated by others.
The stereotypical heaven - God on a throne, loved ones all around - seems rather dull. If that’s what it is like, I sincerely hope there’s a big library.
You could go with what the Mormons believe. The plan is roughly:
Before you were born, you lived in Heaven with God. OK.
You decided to come to Earth to fulfill God’s plan for us. By your own free will.
Once on Earth, your goal is to become the best person you can. You should follow all God’s commandments, etc etc etc.
When you die, you will be judged based on how well you did on Earth. There are three levels of glory. If you attain the highest one (called celestial) you are allowed to move on (move on to what, I don’t know). If you attain one of the lower two, you are stuck. That is where you will be for the remainder of eternity. I think.
If you attained the celestial glory, you are allowed to move on, and eventually improve and perfect yourself to the point where you become a god yourself (that’d be cool!) and basically you’d have your own planet and people, just like God in this life.
Dunno what is supposed to happen after godhood. Suppose all the gods could get together and play poker.
Obviously I don’t know all of the details, but I think this outline is pretty close to their beliefs. Any Mormons here that can clarify?
Personally, I like the Judaic approach, which I interpret as the following:
Don’t worry about it. Concentrate on your life now. Do good in this life.
The scriptures don’t say much about the afterlife, and what is said is either speculation or to prove a point. For instance, the God on a throne version. This would assume that God has form and sits, or that He is need of physical objects, neither of which is true in Judaism. He is portrayed that way because it is a way we, as humans, can understand.
I’m sure there are others who could clarify the Judaic position better than I can.
[speaking as a Catholic Christian, not to exclude anyone]
I agree with you. I have a strong belief in God and can’t wait to be with Him forever, but part of Christians’ mission is to bring about His kingdom on earth. I definitely know what you mean about glimpses here–when you get that wonderful feeling that everything is perfect and you couldn’t be happier. And He gives us the strength to bring about a little of that here.
Obviously we don’t know how it will be, but I trust God will take care of all that. Anything that’s negative here simply won’t be there–boredom, sadness, resentment, etc. Time won’t exist as it does here and we won’t feel like we are stuck on a cloud forever. Being completely with God will fulfill everything that has been unfulfilled here.
Heaven may the place everyone wants to go to, but Hell always gets better and more interesting literary treatments. Read Dante’s “Inferno” (which more people seem to have read than his “Paradiso” or Shaw’s “Man and Superman” or “The History of Hell” or any of the other texts. There’s always something interesting to describe about Hell. Whereas Eternal Bliss may be wonderful to experience, but is boring to describe. Kinda like War Reporting has Peace Reporting beat hollow.
One of my teachers told me that as it was described to HIM, the greatest joy in Heaven was Experiencing the Presence of God. This made him think of Heaven as a sort of giant football stadium, with everyone looking at God on the 50 yard line, sort of the Michael Jackson of the Eternal Halftime Show. This clearly shows the difficulties in trying to apprehend the transcendental with our poor human minds and analogies. At least I hope so
A pub where convivial, intellectually stimulating conversation is going on.
A bar where shared pain is divided and shared joy multiplied.
(Can anybody guess some of my favorite authors?:))
Where ecstasy is not momentary but available at all times.
Whatever gives you ongoing, uncloying happiness – what my wife and I once described as “dynamic contentment” where you’re happy where you are but there’s always something new when you want it.
It’s a state of mind. Some people are there already. Some of them have died; some haven’t.
I guess its so easy to describe Hell because…things can always get worse…
What I mean is, that when you’re in Heaven, you’re feeling content. There’s a difference between feeling content and happiness. When you’re happy, you’re euphoric, almost. And usually that’s because something got better. You had a mediocre/bad day, and then maybe your day got a lot better due to something else…and you feel joyful, euphoric. It’s hard to feel that way if you’re always happy. If you never went to school, you’d never realize how good it is to be able to stay home…that kind of thing.
Another thing…when I was younger and I imagined life after death, I always got terrified thinking of Heaven. Not so much because it was always good, but because it supposedly went on forever. There’s nothing to come after you’ve reached Heaven…you just go on and on. And if you’re taught to believe everything is finite, then when you finally encounter something infinite…it’s just freaky. It still scares me to think of something that is actually eternal…
I forget who said this…but yeah, I think concentrating on life would be better. Life isn’t always great, but it’s what you make of it…
I suppose any good description of heaven should include the disclaimer that it will not be boring. Of course, it’s difficult to comprehend anything that goes on forever without it becoming boring, so you see why it’s so hard to describe. It’s hard to think of anything that doesn’t require one to become some wretched, blissed out zombie with no intellect, drooling in his happiness (I’m sure we’ve all met a few ;)).
BTW, I believe great sex is one of the things that foreshadows heaven. Considering how little I’ve had this lifetime, I’m sure that part of the heavenly buffet will get specific attention upon my arrival.
I too believe in the God of the bible and in Heaven. My belief that I interpet of scripture is this: When in heaven there is no such thing as time due to the fact that God is outside time, there is a verse that says a thousands years to us is like a day to God {metaphor}. God had to be out of time to create creation. Now I also believe they will be no lack of learning due to it is God…if we knew everything then He wouldn’t be God. I truly believe that the things of this world will be a distance memory when it comes to a comparison with heaven. It even says in the bible for those who will be in heaven we will be changed with immortal bodies that will never be sick or tired …etc. Heaven is void of all that is unpleasing…everything we could ask for and more…our imaginations are just too limited. Well enough of my babble…read the bible yourself you won’t regret it…Revelations & Thesslonians are pretty interesting for this subject…there is much more than this of course to give you an idea.
I have often wondered about this subject and now, as I find myself in a deep crisis of faith, I wonder about it even more. My theory of heaven is based in large part upon the accounts of those who have claimed to experienced life after death experiences.
My theory is this: There is no division between heaven and hell as most people envision. Rather, in the afterlife we are beings of a differnent nature than what we can understand now. In this form we can view at a glance all that has occurred in another’s life. There are no secrets. The guilty and the shamed judge and seperate themselves, unable to stand the light and purity of those that have lived good lives. They more guilty they are, the farther they move away from God’s light, whose presence is glorious but causes great shame in those who find themselves unworthy. The closer that one can be in God’s brillant light the more happy one is. Souls will seek to be with those who are as weak or strong spiritually as themselves.
As Wandering Pilgram mentioned, I believe that time would be irrelevant for immortal souls as would the meaning of distance and space. One could travel back in time to far distant worlds and maintain a position near God.
There would be much to do. One could witness historical events. Travel to the heart of a black hole. Sit in a sunny field in England in the year 1985 and enjoy a chocolate milkshake while talking to your great aunt Ruth who passed away before you were born.
And there would always be the challange of mustering up enough courage to move closer to God. To be willing to expose yourself and all your flaws to God and to those who are nearer to him. There would also be the chance to help others move from the darkness that they imprisoned themselves in and move closer to the light.
That’s the afterlife I hope for. And I’m willing to take it even though it means everyone will know what a messed up individual I am.
Ah, i sent a post but I got signed off before it could go through…better retype it.
Okay well maybe heaven is different for all people. Like for me, I don’t know if I’d be happy basking in the light of a superior being- I don’t really like being controlled. But it would be nice, heavenly that is, to be able to do whatever you want for all eternity. And if you had no concept of time, it couldn’t really get old…
Though, would heaven be crowded? All those people who died from years past, and the dinosaurs too of course. Then again, maybe its really hard to get into heaven, and thats why it would be sort of sparse.
[hijack]Does this thread make anyone else think of the Rolling Stones song, Heaven?[/hijack]
Heaven is the door that we all have been knocking on all of our lives without knowing it. It is the fulfillment of the silent ache that comes with the drop of the curtain, the last fading of the sunset, the last note of the song. It is better than we imagine. It is better than we can imagine. It is intimacy, joy, adventure, excitement and mystery beyond our wildest dreams.
Of course, if you don’t believe in an omnipotent diety, you aren’t likely to believe all that. On the other hand, if you do, it’s not a problem.
Saying that being happy all the time wouldn’t be fun makes us rather “like an ignorant child who wants to go on making mud pies in a slum because he cannot imagine what is meant by the offer of a holiday at the sea. We are far too easily pleased.”
The above quote is from CS Lewis’ essay “The Weight of Glory,” an excellent synopsis of the Christian conception of Heaven, and how it infuses our daily life.
Looking around at his creation, with everything flowing into everything else, everything in constant flux, God (as much as I can postulate a God) does not seem like a stasis kind of guy. It never made much sense to me that he created all this for it to flow into two stagnant pools of either bliss or suffering.
Perhaps if Heaven had some sort of purpose.
On the converse side, I was reminded by this of a poem by Shel Silverstein (not one of his kids poems, I read it in my father’s Playboy) about this guy who had been in Hell so long, roasting on a spit I think, he had forgotten the idea of pleasure and wasn’t bothered by his pain anymore. So Satan sends him back to earth for one day, to get laid, so when he get’s back he’ll be able to appreciate his suffering again.
