And you wrote it like that a whole bunch of times. I think you did it on purpose.
Now I ask, is this picture ironic:
It depicts Hitler walking with a smiling, young Aryan looking girl. How is that even incongruous with what Hitler and the Nazis were trying to achieve? Hitler’s goal was Germany as a major world power. That girl can be seen as being a future mother of soldiers for the Third Reich. I don’t consider that an ironic picture.
It is possible that not everyone see’s the irony in a situation. In the O’henry case a person that did not know what the two people went through would not understand the Irony.
I have not heard the song but it could be that it is ironic to Alanis Morrisette that everyone thinks it is not ironic when it really is ironic because everyone thinks it is not. This could have been her intent all along. It could also be that the lyrics are ironic only to Alanis Morrisette because no one else see’s the irony but her, which is possible if the song had some sort of hidden meaning.
Hoo boy, some good stuff here.
Maybe that is sort of getting at it, though I still think her intended message is therefore obscured. Aha - maybe that was the plan all along! groan
I will think some more about this specific case and get back to it.
jjimm, I am having a similar problem to nivlac’s with your quite tempting definition.
This all works for literary constructs and the like, but I think we have nailed that down fairly well. I’m just not sure how easy it is to apply ‘inverse appropriateness’ for things in real life, or indeed in much literature (especially non-narrative). But, to re-use Crayon’s example is a helme[n]t falling on your head, in real life, going to be ironic every time, because of the general expectation that a helmet is for protecting one’s head? I’m not sure.
roger, since you put it out there, why is the use of ‘intertextuality’ by Kimball ironic? Care to elaborate?
Finally, I don’t get the wikipedia picture either. But I do think Fowler’s claims that irony implies a ‘double audience’ is worth considering. The example, also, of ‘Pore Judd’ from Oklahoma is potentially misleading, since that is also dealing in dramatic irony. So, I put it to you: is irony essentially exclusionary, in that it seeks the ‘in-group’ who perceive, again, the ‘intended message’ from the perspective of the producer of the ironic statement or originator of the ironic occurrence? And does this exclude the helmet example entirely?
Curiouser and curioser…
Cheers,
Daphne
I think the irony in the song lies in the fact that it isn’t really ironic at all.
This whole discussion to me sounds very odd. Irony to me is connected primarily to a way of speaking, as it did with Socrates: saying something while in fact meaning something entirely different, quite often at the expense of (i.e. over the head of) the person you’re speaking to. “O, dear Polymarchus, you’re so wise, please tell me what ‘good’ means. Well, that is an excellent definition, but pardon me, I’m so stupid, would you please explain this tiny question I have?”
A modern example is Buffy, when Wesley orders her to go investigate what the Mayor is up to, and replies: “I love it when you order me like that, you man, you.”
Isn’t that a common way of using the word anymore? Lamia noticed something like that up there.
Sarcasm is a form of irony. It’s specifically a kind of ironic remark that is used to insult or hurt someone.
Sarcasm is almost always spoken. Having the proper sarcastic tone of voice is important in expressing the meaning correctly. Written sarcasm is less common, and some would argue that anything written is by definition not sarcastic. Unlike the broader term “irony”, it doesn’t make sense to talk about “dramatic sarcasm” (unless you’re referring to the dialogue) or a “sarcastic situation” in real life.
Although again, I think trying to apply the term “irony” to real-life situations is what’s making it difficult to pin down the meaning. Unless there’s some agent knowingly orchestrating the situation, there can’t be ironic intent behind it. So what distinguishes “ironic real-life situation” from “coincidence”? If we’re going to use the term to apply to real life at all, it may be easier to think of it as referring to situations that seem like an example of dramatic irony from a play.
Sorry, I missed this above a bit. I think you are absolutely right here.
This is the main problem with the current way the word is being used.
And I don’t give Alanis credit for being that clever.
Cheers,
Daphne
This deep in the thread and no-one’s mentioned the Winona Rider scene in “Reality Bites”? (how ironic.)
She’s just graduated, from graduate school I think, with a degree in English. In her first job interview, she’s asked to ‘define irony’. She’s speechless and terrified.
Perfect example.
Okay, how about,
My mother is on her death bed, and when I come back from visiting her, I tell my husband, “Honey, I think she’s really gonna die!”
He says “I’m so sorry lovey” gives me a hug, then says “don’t worry, you’ll always have me”
Then he dies the next day while I’m at work.
Irony is Queen Victoria and John Stuart Mill discussing women’s suffrage 
Okay, so it’s not the best example, but I thought it was sort of funny when I heard about it.
To me, irony entails a degree of unexpected/contradictory juxtaposing.
As in:
Irony is France/europe allowing Disneyland to build a theme park whose mascots (Mickey and Minnie) are the same type of animal that were responsible for the black plague.