I’ve always wondered about this. I mean, the things that she sings about are not, ironic, right? “It’s like 10,000 spoons, when all you need is a knife” – I mean, that’s a bummer, but it’s not ironic.
Wouldn’t irony be, “It’s like 10,000 spoons when you need a knife and make them for a living?” or something (I have admitted elsewhere that I’m horrible at analogies).
I always thought irony had to have its own special twist. Race car driver dies in a fender bender, that type of thing.
I’ve always found the objections to this song kind of strange. I can see irony in most of the the things she includes in the song pretty easily. Irony: a result which is at odds with the standard expectation; something that turns out the opposite of what might be expected. I tend to figure irony fits as a description when talking about a situation where, if I’m not involved, it might be somewhat amusing. Darkly amusing, perhaps, in certain circumstances, but still possibly amusing.
“10000 spoons when all you need is a knife.” – You’d generally think a knife is pretty easy to find, right? And I doubt many people would expect to find 10,000 spoons without there being a knife somewhere.
Guy who is afraid to fly getting on a plane which then crashes – Given the general safety records of most planes, who would expect that the one plane this guy gets on in his life is going to crash? I mean, to me the expected result of a guy afraid to fly finally flying is that he gets to his destination safely, and maybe starts thinking of his fear of flying as maybe a little silly.
Rain on your wedding day – Given the amount of prep involved in dealing with a wedding, you’d hope that the weather might be a bit cooperative. In this case, it’s not expectations being violated, it’s a violation of what would be appropriate, but I could still see this falling under the ironic heading.
“Well Life Has A Funny Way Of Sneaking Up On You
When You Think Everything’s Okay And Everything’s Going Right
And Life Has A Funny Way Of Helping You Out When
You Think Everything’s Gone Wrong And Everything Blows Up
In Your Face”
– I find this bit to be the more enlightening bit of the song. I mean, wouldn’t you expect that if things are going ok, they’ll continue that way? Ok, a cynic might expect that to be exactly when things are going to go wrong, but an optimist wouldn’t. And when everything is going wrong, you generally expect things to keep going that way, so little bits of help out of the blue are certainly unexpected.
In some cases it might be stretching the definition a bit, but I can see where she’s coming from on most of these. Perhaps it’s just that I’m usually kind of optimistic about things, but given most of the situations posited, the results mentioned don’t fit my expectations.
I just want to clarify that I have remotely heard buzz about this point that didn’t really register at the buzz-time. I’m not claiming to be orginal or anything.
See, in all the things you reference, I see it as a bummer, not ironic.
But I think the ironic thing would be if he wasn’t afraid to fly.
Here, I think the ironic thing would be, it’s like rain on your wedding day, which you changed at the last minute because of a weather report that said it would be sunny.
Or something like that. It just seems to me that irony has to have an extra Bam to it.
Sat on Cookie is correct – rain on your wedding day is not ironic. It is a bummer, but you do need that extra “bam” to make it ironic (like the fact that you changed the date at the last minute to avoid a predicted rain storm – and then the original day was beautiful and clear, and the day you moved to had rain).
As to the OP – I would like to think that Ms. Morrissette was being that clever, but I don’t.
yes, but by this definition, wouldn’t it be JUST as ironic–if not moreso–if the guy who’s always spouting about airplane safety and quoting statistics about how flying is the safest way to travel, gets on an airplane and it crashes?
so which is it?
See what I mean? your definition is no definition at all, really, if it covers both situations.
My take on it has always been exactly what you’re positing in the OP. While irony can be a difficult thing for some people to grasp, I tend to give Alanis Morrissette the benefit of the doubt and believe she actually whooshed everyone that mocks her for her examples not being ironic when it’s actually the title that’s supposed to be.
Of course, I could just be thinking too much into things or being too forgiving.
Well, yes, probably. The kicker for the original verse, though, is that we have a guy who’s been afraid to fly all his life. He finally gets over his fear and decides to take a flight, having either been convinced or convinced himself that he was wrong. It’s the only flight he’s ever taken. So the fact that he gets the unexpected, and unfortunately horrible, result has more of an impact on the sympathetic (one hopes) reader or listener.
I disagree. First, it’s not my definition. It’s a standard definition available in a number of places. See Google. Most of the definitions refer to the literary device, but most have some form of what I used.
Second, the two situations aren’t opposites, really. In both cases you have a guy who is made conspicuous due to some obsession with flying. In the first case, he was obsessed with the possibility of crashing. In the second case, he’s obsessed with the safety levels.
I guess I just don’t see the extra bam as necessary. The extra bam would make it even more ironic, but would just add emphasis as far as I’m concerned. As far as I can see, most things that are “bummers” are ironic. Because they’re only “bummers” because you didn’t expect them and prepare for them.
Sorry to be so serious in CS, but this particular argument has bugged me for a long time. You just happened to catch me when I had some free time. 
Oh my god it never occurred to me that she was so brilliant and clever! I just assumed she was a minimally talented performer (I was gonna say “singer” but it’s hard to think of her style of barking out every syllable like a clubbed seal pup as singing) with a cavalier attitude toward vocabulary. It’s a relief to know I was wrong.
Again, for me that would fall under, “geez, what are the odds?” but it’s not ironic. I think it would be ironic with Lissener’s example (but I’m not sure if Lissener thinks that’s ironic or not).
I see your point. But, even in the event of “Mr. Play it Safe” who is afraid to fly, I would need something additional, like, Mr. Play it Safe WAS afraid to fly (and had never flown) but came to the conclusion that it was the safest method of travel. And then crashed. To me, that would be ironic. Him being afraid to fly and crashing, isn’t ironic. To me.
I’m pretty sure I disagree. I think there is a difference between being a bummer and being ironic. I don’t think something could be classified as “more” ironic.
You and me, both. I’m honestly not rip-roaring heated up over this, btw. I’d be fine if someone came in and made me see it your way – I’m sincerely wondering about this.
What you’re demonstrating, Teine, with all respect, is that you seem to have the same misunderstanding of the definition of the word that Miss Moreisless has. Again, with all respect, just because you’re both wrong in the same way, doesn’t necessarily mean that you’re right.
You have nailed, in other words, AM’s misunderstanding of the meaning of the word; unfortunately, it remains a misunderstanding.
I appreciate your sharing your personal understanding of what the word “ironic” means, but that doesn’t change the fact that the word already comes with its own pre-established definition, that is not really subject to opinion.
Thanks, Lissener. Interesting.
And there is absolutley nothing ironic about “Some good advice that you just didn’t take.”
How ironic!
Thanks for the link.
I believe I understand where the usage note is coming from on the usage of ironic, and given that view I can understand the objections to the song’s use of the term. However, I find it incongruous that the usage committee seems to require the additional criteria of “showing human inconsistency” to allow the use of ironic, when none of the definitions, including the ones listed in your link, indicate that criteria.
I also note that the dictionary you linked to lists almost exactly the definition I used as definition 2a under irony: Incongruity between what might be expected and what actually occurs.
So I understand your position, but remain a bit confused.
I’ll take a stab at this.
Here’s the way I look at it. If someone is afraid to fly, why are they afraid to fly? Because they might crash. Hence, that is what is expected. See? They are afraid to fly because they might crash (what they expect to happen)…so if they do crash, then that’s what actually occurs and there’s no incongruity.
Whereas, someone who walks around taunting others about being wuss’s for not flying expects not to crash and, in an ironic situation, what actually occurs is that he does crash.
Well, it’s not toy. By that I mean that “irony” is one of those words that lends itself better to careful, sophisticated usage than to being slanged around imprecisely. Like comprise, which is often misused, by the ill-trained, in place of compose; or apropos; or differentiate. Or even *epitome * and infer. These words are *almost always * misused. My theory is that ill-educated word snobs use them because they sound sophisticated. But it’s their very unfamiliarity that makes them sound (so goes my theory) rarified and sophisticated. So, ironically, this snobbish attempt at sophistication falls pretty flat.
There are a lot of words that are infrequently enough used that more people are *unfamiliar * with the nuances of their meanings than are familiar with them. And when somone uses a word to try to sound smart, instead of to communicate a particular meaning, these words get pretty bandied and bruised. We’ve almost entirely lost *epitome, * comprise, and infer; almost nobody uses them correctly anymore, so they’ve become, in effect, entirely different words. The consensus definition of those words has evolved to the extent that to use them correctly is more likely to lead to confusion than to use them incorrectly.
But now I’m just whining.
Actually, the spoons thing may be the closest thing to irony in the entire song. If you’re frantically looking for a knife, and all you find is 10,000 spoons (that’s a lot of spoons), that’s fairly ironic.
Honestly, Lissener, I really wish you could just contribute in plain, dumbed-down English, for us idiots. I feel myself wanting to learn from you but don’t know where to begin.
I see that. Good point.