Is the song, "Isn't it Ironic?" purposely NOT Ironic, so it ends up being ironic?

[dotchan]

IIRC, there are three types of irony:

1. Verbal (as in, sarcasm/satire) - for example, saying “Oh, wonderful” when in fact something really horrible has just happened
2. Situational - Generally, your plans going wrong in the worst way possible. Murphy’s Law covers this part, but also simply unfortunate coincidences that tend to suck. Irony is kind of funny, even if it happens to you.
3. Dramatic - Someone else (typically, the audience in a play) knows what’s going to happen to you, but you don’t yet.

A good example is the story The Gift of the Magi. The husband sells his watch to buy his wife a beautiful set of combs, and the wife sells her hair to buy her husband a gold watch chain. It’s situational irony - they each sacrificed the very things that the other was getting gifts for, but it’s also dramatic irony - they didn’t know what the other was planning, but the reader does.

Incidentally, does irony have a negative denotation, or does it just have a bad reputation?

So, back to the song:
“10000 spoons when all you need is a knife” - well, it might make the mark (because part of Murphy’s law is “you never find something when you need it”), but it definitely would pass the irony test if you had stocked up on your silverware fear of not having enough spoons, but then the day you need a knife you can’t find a single one.

“Guy who is afraid to fly getting on a plane which then crashes” - sort of ironic, because it did justify his fears (if he lived through it). Probably would have been more ironic if an airplane pilot who had a pristine record went on his first commercial flight that he himself didn’t have to fly - and then promptly found himself on a short trip back to the ground.

“Rain on your wedding day” - it’s already been covered. As is, it’s just unfortunate, not ironic. (Again, more Murphy’s Law than pure irony.)

“Life has a funny way of…” - the bad stuff happening on good days is definitely at least Murphy’s Law, and certainly would have ironic moments. Good fortune genuinely isn’t considered irony, unless it happens to someone you’re planning nasty things for. (Like, for example, there’s a Grimm’s Fairy Tale about a king who tries to off a boy by having him deliver a note saying “have this boy killed”, but some ruffians take pity on the boy and change the note to “marry this boy to the princess”, which is exactly what the king didn’t want to happen. Irony for the king, but not the boy.)

[Sat_on_Cookie]

@dotchan

So, back to the song:
“10000 spoons when all you need is a knife” - well, it might make the mark (because part of Murphy’s law is “you never find something when you need it”), but it definitely would pass the irony test if you had stocked up on your silverware fear of not having enough spoons, but then the day you need a knife you can’t find a single one.

And I guess part of the question is, you added in “if you had stocked up…but the day you needed a knife, etc.” and to me, that makes is clearly ironic. Although, I’m thinking being around 10,000 spoons and needing a knife is also ironic.

“Guy who is afraid to fly getting on a plane which then crashes” - sort of ironic, because it did justify his fears (if he lived through it). Probably would have been more ironic if an airplane pilot who had a pristine record went on his first commercial flight that he himself didn’t have to fly - and then promptly found himself on a short trip back to the ground.

Again, your support is an example of irony where I just don’t see how the first part is ironic.

[Snooooopy]

“Aw, FUCK!!!” would have been a more accurate title, but would no doubt have run afoul of the decency police.

[Teine]

And, being obsessive, I go looking and find this:

The situations Morissette described were not ironic in the strict sense. They seem best described as “unfortunate coincidences” or “surprising disappointments.” Referring to them as “ironic” is arguably sloppy usage, of which detractors maintained Morissette was guilty.

Ok, I understand the argument clearly.

@Sat on Cookie

Here’s the way I look at it. If someone is afraid to fly, why are they afraid to fly? Because they might crash. Hence, that is what is expected. See? They are afraid to fly because they might crash (what they expect to happen)…so if they do crash, then that’s what actually occurs and there’s no incongruity.

There’s no incongruity based on their expectations, yes. I would argue that there is, or could be, incongruity based on a neutral observer’s expectations. I guess here I see an arguement for irony, as used here, under Irony of Fate:

The rain that sets in immediately after one finishes watering one’s garden, following many days of putting off watering in anticipation of rain.

Ah, well. I see where you guys, particularly lissener are coming from on this. I certainly know more about how the word evolved than I did. So I’ll have to look at how I use irony/ironic, and see where I agree with the evolution and where I don’t.

[Cisco]

@The Controvert

How ironic!

That’s not ironic, that’s just mean!

The use of words expressing something other than their literal intention. Now THAT. IS. IRONY!

[down_by_law]

can’t we let this song go?

i’ve read countless threads on the non-ironic nature of the song. it always seems to bring the irony police out of their little grammar caves. hey, here’s a shocking little tidbit for you: a lot of popular songs aren’t grammatically accurate. go figure. it’s just a fucking song.

[Inigo_Montoya]

I don’t think any of her examples are ironic. The song itself would be ironic if she were a word Nazi AND she didn’t know none of her examples illustrated irony. But then, if she intended for that to be the case, it would cease to be ironic.

I think the song is a whoosh for another reason. While I like the album well enough, I can’t help but point out the decidedly combative & resentful undertones of most of the songs. The song *could * be intended to aggravate individuals who revel in pointing out her errors, don’t 'cha think? Look at how many times she actually says “ironic” in the song! And Yeah she really does think.

I dunno. She’s ornery. That’s all I really wanted to say.

[WILLASS]

I know what you mean, although I doubt the ironicness of much of the song I do realise it is just a song!

I despaired when I read in a thread about the Outkast song ‘Hey Ya’, that someone was arguing that the line ‘shake it like a polaroid picture’ wasn’t really factually correct as polaroids no longer need to be shaken and even when they were you couldn’t shake your ass in the same way as a polaroid picture. I was stunned that anyone could even muster the effort to moan about this…

[lissener]

@WILLASS

. . . I despaired when I read in a thread about the Outkast song ‘Hey Ya’, that someone was arguing that the line ‘shake it like a polaroid picture’ wasn’t really factually correct as polaroids no longer need to be shaken and even when they were you couldn’t shake your ass in the same way as a polaroid picture. I was stunned that anyone could even muster the effort to moan about this…

I suspect you were whooshed. At the time, I got a HUGE laugh out of the fact that Polaroid held like a press conference urging people NOT TO SHAKE THEIR PICTURES! I suspect that anyone who mentioned that agreed with you.

[Leaper]

@Sat on Cookie

I’ll take a stab at this.

Here’s the way I look at it. If someone is afraid to fly, why are they afraid to fly? Because they might crash. Hence, that is what is expected. See? They are afraid to fly because they might crash (what they expect to happen)…so if they do crash, then that’s what actually occurs and there’s no incongruity.

Whereas, someone who walks around taunting others about being wuss’s for not flying expects not to crash and, in an ironic situation, what actually occurs is that he does crash.

But, since most people fly without expecting a crash, doesn’t this mean that, technically, every single plane crash would be ironic to you?

[Stainz]

What really made me groan was when several years ago, a friend of a friend proudly told me that she used that song to teach the meaning of irony to her students. (She was a phys. ed. teacher who also had to teach English - it was a small high school).

Scary …

[Munch]

@Inigo Montoya

I think the song is a whoosh for another reason. While I like the album well enough, I can’t help but point out the decidedly combative & resentful undertones of most of the songs. The song could be intended to aggravate individuals who revel in pointing out her errors, don’t 'cha think? Look at how many times she actually says “ironic” in the song! And Yeah she really does think.

Yeah, that album is a little hard to swallow…

[Pashnish_Ewing]

@Munch

Yeah, that album is a little hard to swallow…

Well, You Oughta Know.

[Cinnamon_Girl]

Thus 78 percent of the Usage Panel rejects the use of ironically in the sentence In 1969 Susie moved from Ithaca to California where she met her husband-to-be, who, ironically, also came from upstate New York. Some Panelists noted that this particular usage might be acceptable if Susie had in fact moved to California in order to find a husband, in which case the story could be taken as exemplifying the folly of supposing that we can know what fate has in store for us. By contrast, 73 percent accepted the sentence Ironically, even as the government was fulminating against American policy, American jeans and videocassettes were the hottest items in the stalls of the market, where the incongruity can be seen as an example of human inconsistency.

Isn’t it ironic that dictionary people can’t even agree on the correct usage of the term ironic when that’s their job? Sheesh, talk about your human inconsistency.

[1010011010]

Irony is the difference between what is known and what is real.

[lissener]

@Cinnamon Girl

Isn’t it ironic that dictionary people can’t even agree on the correct usage of the term ironic when that’s their job? Sheesh, talk about your human inconsistency.

Hmm. I’d have thought the 78% figure would have shown two things: one, that irony, like many words, is subject to nuance and shades of gray. And two, that a great majority of experts make a clear distinction within those shades. Seems like a pretty clearcut case of doing their job pretty well.

[Cinnamon_Girl]

Can we get a tongue-planted-firmly-in-cheek smiley? Because the winky just seems to bland…

[Askia]

Funny: I’ve always found irony easy to recognize when I recognize it or explain by examples, but irony is hard for many people to grasp. They always get irony confused with “bad luck” or “tragedy” when it’s more than that. The best way I can explain irony is, “an outcome confounding expectations.”

Examples, elaborating on Morissette’s song.

1. A man who’s scared to fly, absolutely refuses to fly under any circumstances, nonetheless dies in a plane crash on a cross-country trip. The plane crashes into his car as he’s driving. THAT’S ironic.

2. A woman needs a knife, opens a drawer with 10,000 spoons. She closes the drawer, spots a box marked "KNIVES’ and opens it… inside there are still more spoons. She finally finds a knife in a box marked “FORKS”. THAT’S ironic.

3. Woman plans for a perfect outdoor wedding by having it in the drought-stricken desert to ensure that it won’t rain. It still rains. That’s ironic.

4. Woman gets conflicting advice from a personal friend (whose advice is unsolicited, unprofessional, largely anectdotal and emotionally based) and a professional expert (whose advice is impeccable: researched, backed by experience and paid for). She takes the expert’s advice. The expert is wrong. Her friend was right. She still has to pay the expert, too. THAT’S ironic.

5. A friend sets you up on a blind date. You refuse to even talk to the guy. A few years later you meet someone. He’s perfect for you. Even HE seems to realize you have a lot in common. Then his beautiful wife shows up. You suddenly realize this man is the guy your friend was trying to set you up with on a blind date years earlier. That’s irony.

6. A true story, swear to God: A bunch of my college friends and I steal a van one night that our the dorm director rented earlier that day, just to go joy-riding in. Our first stop brings us into contact with a state police cruiser and a campus security guard. We try not to look guilty of anything. One minute later the state police cruiser is pulling us over outside campus. We’re very nervous. Out of the state police car comes the security guard: unarmed, no radio, fifty pounds overweight. We relax. The security guard asks who rented the van. The driver claims its his. The security guard gets mad, waves off the state police, calls us a bunch of names, makes the driver gives him the van keys, commandeers the van, takes us all back to the dorm. You see, his part-time job is being a campus guard. His regular daytime job he rents out cars, and he recognized ours as the one he rented out personally to the dorm director earlier that day. That’s irony!

[Ephemera]

@lissener

Oh my god it never occurred to me that she was so brilliant and clever! I just assumed she was a minimally talented performer (I was gonna say “singer” but it’s hard to think of her style of barking out every syllable like a clubbed seal pup as singing) with a cavalier attitude toward vocabulary. It’s a relief to know I was wrong.

Do you feel better now that you have that out of your system?

I never said that she made the song as an intentional whoosh… what I said ist that it would not surprise me if she did and even then, I admitted at the end that I might be putting too much faith into her.

Get over yourself.

[JThunder]

The real irony is that Alanis made a ton of money off this song without even knowing what the word “irony” means.