What is it with Heinlein fans and Panshin?

Dammit, why do I get these things too late?

I bought my copy of Heinlein in Dimension from Panshin himself at the 1989 WorldCon. The book is, I think, out of print, and tough to get hold of. I’d heard of it before. I found it a good read. I didn’t agree with everything in it, but Panshin is an astute writer and critic. (See his very long history of science fiction, co-written with his wife, The World Beyond the Hill, which even Fenris has said he rather likes.) Reading something like that always makes me feel inadequate – I’ve got a long way to go in understanding writing, even though I’ve been doing it for so long.

Panshin didn’t invent the idea that Heinlein’s characters are all basically the same – James Blish first proposed it,m in an artcile entitled “Heinlein, Son of Heinlein”, which I haven’t seen yet. Just to be picky, when Fenris says that:

I have to call him on it. You can make up facts out of whole cloth, but it’s not really correct to complain about opinions that way – and this is clearly an opinion.

In any event, though I’ll agree with Fenris that Panshin (and presumably Blish) pushed it too far, I can see their points. An awful lot of Heinlein’s characters do seem too similar, and as if they are different stages of the same individual.

On the whole, I think Panshin’s book was a good exercise in criticism, and there hadn’t been much criticism of Heinlein by that point, I believe. Certainly, though I love Heinlein (he was one of the first SF authors I encountered, and the first one to really inmflame my love of the genre), it was good to see a “devil’s advocate” pointing out discrepancies and flaws. When I first heard complaints about Panshin’s book I thought it must be a case of rabid fans grumbling, but when I went back and read the book certain passages certainly stand out as much more brutal than they need to be. It’s not a dispassionate tome, and folks are, I think, justified in thinking that Panshin is going out of bounds with his punches. So my feelings about the book are ambivalent. I will say this – this is clearly the work of someone who knew and loved the literature. It’s no hatchet job, and it’s not written by someone with only superficial familiarity of the works. Whoever wrote it read and re-read the works and mulled them over a long time. Maybe the bad tione arose from the flak he was getting from Heinlein before its publication.

Ah, crap. This is why these discussions never go anywhere. Art is what reaches people? Then Jackass and Joe Millionaire is art? What does literary mean? If literary doesn’t include little things like characterization, style, and dialog, then why bother even having the word? Heinlein equates to Hemingway? Why? Because they’re both still found in libraries today? So’s the World Almanac.

Agree to disagree? We’re not even in the same solar systems when it comes to basic premises.
And when I specified adult fiction, I meant to exclude his juveniles. Take another look at your list. Take out all the juveniles and the post-67 references, and you have a very short list indeed, even if I grant you every one of your examples. (Which I wouldn’t: Dan from Summer clearly moves from stage 1 to stage 2 over the course of the novel when he scams the scammers.)

As for Heinlein’s females, reread Summer. Not only will it make want to join NOW, it may make you want to start up a new chapter of SCUM.

I haven’t once mentioned Heinlein’s political notions either, but I will say here that there is nothing in his adult fiction that ever has a positive depiction of standard democratic government. Don’t try mentioning Starship Troopers either because that’s just a recapitulation of the special powers the government granted itself in WWII. On a scale of restaurants, from grease shack to Le Bec Fin, his politics range from Denny’s to Red Lobster.

All I see anywhere here is that you think Heinlein is “good” because he is fun and readable. I granted that. But I have other completely different requirements for “good” that Heinlein doesn’t come close to mastering. That’s where we’ll have to agree to disagree.

I hope that some day xome will do a pre “Tramp Royale” bio of Heinlein.

I have never been able to come up with a reasonable deal (borad to use duplicate parlance) for the Seven No Trump redoubled and made in “Farnhams Freehold”.

Spider Robinson legally took Spider as his first name. As far as I am concerned that should be the end of that discussion.

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Of course it includes characterization, style and dialogue. But it also includes storytelling skill and the ability to reach people. That’s why I specified that there’s not a 1:1 relationship between popularity and quality. Art that reaches no-one but the author and a tiny circle that he/she is writing to is essentially masturbation. “Enjoyed by the masses” isn’t the only important quality, it’s certainly not even close to as important as the other items discussed, but it shouldn’t be completely ignored either.

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Given that 1/3d of Panshin’s premise involves the 'young man" character, we can’t exclude the Juvies. And why would you exclude 'em anyway? How many “stage one” characters does Heinlein have, outside of them?

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Even if we do exclude the Juvies and the post '67 stuff, I have at least one example per. I’d rather not go through each Heinlein novel and short story to provide an exhaustive list. I believe I’ve shown he has written outside the scope of those three extremely broad categories (so broad that most characters in any sort of heroic fiction fit them). Can’t we start from there?

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What do those requrirements include? Storytelling skill? Style? Characterization? Dialogue? Prose?

Fenris

This is a straw man argument. There are libraries full of works that are both readable and art. Much literature is more difficult than popular writing, but the best sellers lists of every decade will feature some novels that have clear literary merit. Heck, some popular best sellers are so bad that they are impossible to read.

Sure. All of them. Any individual book may feature some more than others (or have great plotting or relationships or setting or historical sweep or psychological nuance or many other virtues) but those are indeed basics.

And if applied, how would you rate Heinlein compared to, say, Hemingway? I’m no Hemingway worshipper, but to me, for the record, the comparison is laughable except, possibly, for storytelling skill. (Too many commas. See what you’ve driven me to? :slight_smile: )

Are we really getting into a debate over whether Heinlein is art or not? Can’t we just leave it at: he’s a good popular writer but his works are not literature?

Well, what was it that Asimov said about Heinlein? Something like “I can be friends with far right conservatives (and he was thinking of Campbell here, I’m sure), but I can’t stand it when my friends turn into far right conservatives.”?

Exapno: I would genuinely like to know why Heinlein could not be considered literature.

BTW, have you considered de Camp’s Lest Darkness Fall and Poul Anderson’s The Corridors of Time for your course on time-travel?

Trite carachterization and poor dialogue?

That raises the question, though, MusicJunkie (love that name, btw) of what is trite about his characterization and poor about his dialogue.

But I don’t know that I can agree with that until you give me a definition of literature. Heinlein’s dialogue is crisp and witty (more so in his early work, see “Let there Be Light” for example. He had a feel for the language of his time as much as Ruyon did.). Heinlein’s characterization…ok…it’s not stunning, but it’s good. His prose can be stunning (“Unpleasant Profession”, “Magic, Inc.”) and Heinlein’s storytelling skills can’t be beaten even in his < cough > lesser novels. Style? It’s minimalist, granted. You don’t get 200 word paragraphs describing the play of light on the dew that’s gathered on the crushed petals of lillies, which is intended to be a subtle metaphor for Viet Nam, but that’s not necessarily bad. :wink:

I can’t really compare Heinlein to Hemingway: I just picked the name because Hemingway was a literary name that began with “H”.

Would you mind answering a few more questions on this topic? (If you do, just say so and we can drop it: no hard feelings. :slight_smile: )
Can/will you define “literature”? I’m honestly interested. My prejudice is that authors that are enjoyable to read are not literature and authors who are dull, turgid and unpleasant are. This was not helped by some of the worst that public education had to offer. The unspeakably bad Tess of the D’Ubervilles is what I think of when I think of “literature”. Hell, so’s Dhalgren, which, to me, was literally gibberish.

Can you give me some examples of modern literature? Science Fiction that is also literature? Is Damon Runyon literature?

To quote a sage of our time “Edumacate me!” :smiley:

Fenris

There’s no more an easy answer to what is literature that what makes a good wine. Or why pop divas are not great music. Or what makes a good science fiction novel, for that matter. It’s a process of education, of experience, of discrimination, of training your eyes (and ears, for music, or nose, for wine, or taste, for cuisine, or touch, for, I don’t know, pianos).

I do know I can tell usually within a paragraph whether a writer is a fine writer or not. This is not at all the same as art or artiness. Nor does it say whether the piece as a whole is any good or not. But writers with a fine touch for language will tend to be good at many other aspects of writing as well.

[This is not the same as voice. There are many writers even in sf, from Cordwainer Smith to R. A. Lafferty to Elliot Fintushel, who are so distinctive that their work can be set apart from any others. There are others with distinctive voices that I find unreadable.]

Popular genre novels tend to be both narrow and hypertrophic at the same time. Are you familiar with Octavia Butler? I just reread Kindred, in which a modern black woman goes back in time to a slave plantation needing to save her white ancestor from death so that her existence won’t be wiped out. A great picture of slavery and the slave experience. But you will find out nothing about politics, history, culture, or society while reading it. You must draw on your own knowledge for any context about why such a society came into being, what people - white or black - thought about it in the day, what any other aspect of the US or the world was like at the time, even what was happening in the next farmhouse. The people may be complex, the moral issues compelling, the slave experience horrendously depicted - but it never quite felt like literature in the way great literature about the black experience - Ralph Ellison, say, or Frederick Douglass’ narratives - feel like literature.

This is perilously close to “I know it when I see it.” But I do know it when I see it. I’d like to think I could take a work of literature and explicate why it is one - but you have to work at it from the other side, just as I would have to work to hear a classical music lover explain to me why Bach is art. I do know that as long as you think that “200 word paragraphs describing the play of light on the dew that’s gathered on the crushed petals of lillies, which is intended to be a subtle metaphor for Viet Nam” is the definition of literature you will never find out what real literature is like.

Sorry to get didactic. But, hey, you asked. :smiley:

Interesting. My apologies for trying to pin you down just a bit more - but is Watership Down ( non-SF, sorry, but the example came to mind ) literature? Howabout sociological space opera like Cherryh’s Cyteen?

If I may, I’d be interested if you could suggest a short list ( maybe a dozen examples ) of sf/fantasy that you would consider literature. With perhaps just a sentence or two about a few of them about what strikes you as defining them as such.

Thanks :).

  • Tamerlane

Oh and an additional question - Do you think popular genre novels by definition are incapable of achieving the status of literature? Or is it just a category that tends to rarely produce it?

  • Tamerlane

Huh. Couldn’t you make the same comments (as far as drawing on one’s own knowledge of context) for The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn? Or is that not “literature” either? It almost sounds as if you have “literature” confused with “history” or “sociology”.

This would really help me “grok” your POV too. :wink:

What a great thread. Eagerly awaiting a list of “lit’ry” SF.

If you want another example of a Heinlein character who doesn’t fit one of the three molds, how about D. D. Harriman? He’s old, he’s competent, and he gets the job done… But he’s completely apolitical, and he isn’t idealistic about anything but space exploration. Or yet another example: In “Coventry” the “Wise Old Man who pontificates on the Ways of the World” character is a prepubescent girl. Which category is she supposed to be in? Admittedly, she was raised and mentored by another wise guy who is an old man, but he doesn’t do any preaching.

And as for defining “literature” by the “I know it when I see it” standard, I’d be a lot more inclined to include Heinlein in the category than Hemmingway. I mean, say what you like about Heinlein, but all of his books at least have a plot, which is more than can be said of Hemmingway. And if Heinlein has only three characters, Hemmingway only has two: Adult male with no distinguishing characteristics who does nothing, and adult female with no distinguishing characteristics who does nothing. Unfortunately, too many people seem to go by Mark Twain’s definition: “A classic is something which everyone wants to have read, but nobody wants to read.”. Dangit, a classic should be something that people want to read.

Oh, and Fenris?

Let me just say that when I read that (and the two more sentences which followed) my office mates looked at me funny for laughing out loud.

To The Peyote Coyote:

First, thanks for liking the name. Second, sorry for the delay.

As to dialogue, while there evidently is a nice ear for the language and it flows well enough I sometimes get the impression that Heinlen couldn’t write more than two sentences in a row before getting into a speech and pontificating.
Nobody just talks, instead we get soliloquys(sp?) interposed with questions for clarification.

And OK, it’s a bit much to say that Heinlen couldn’t write more than three carachters but still there is so much similarities between his carachters that they get boring.
That and, in any given book, there’s only one carachter that actually changes. The others are in the end as they were at the beginning (Stranger being a great exeption to that).
And… I just plain find them unrealistic.

A) Thanks, Chronos! :slight_smile:

B) Cal regarding the “make up out of whole cloth” thing: I dunno. If I were to write a book asserting my opinion that the sky is not acutally blue, but instead is plaid…

Musicjunkie (and I agree with Peyote: great name!), I don’t know how much Heinlein you’ve read, so please don’t take this the wrong way: Heinlein’s later stuff was loaded with speechifying. No doubt about it. Say from Double Star forward, much of his time was spent with characters talking about ideas. However…his early and middle stuff (with two notable exceptions: “…if this Goes On” and “Coventry”) didn’t share that trait. I’d highly recommend the story collection The Fantasies of Robert Heinlein if you’re interested in trying a completely different Heinlein from the one prone to giving soloquies (sp too! :wink: )

Fenris

I put this off until evening because I’ve been spending way too much time on the Board, especially on this thread, in a debate I got suckered into, even though I said upfront I don’t want any part of it.

Grumble.

And I also got suckered into the use of “literature,” even though that’s a slippery, touchy-feely term. Most of great American literature was not recognized as such when it first came out. Moby Dick added nothing to Melville’s reputation at the time. Huck Finn was reviled by many. (But ** MEBuckner**, how can you say “It almost sounds as if you have “literature” confused with “history” or “sociology”? Huck Finn was contemporary so it didn’t need to give historical context for the culture. But what makes the book so great if it isn’t exactly the peeling off of the respectable exteriors of society to show the true faces underneath? The book is not about a raft trip; it is not an adventure. Huck’s developing understanding of himself in relation to his society is the defining moment in American literature, so wonderful that you can even forgive Clemens for the Tom Sawyerized ending.)

Take Fitzgerald. He was recognized as a major talent from his first novels. But Gatsby got mixed reviews and less than expected sales. It’s not true that all Fitzgerald’s works were out of print when he died, but it was not until Bruccoli edited a major collection in the 1950s that his stature was restored. (And who says that critics never do anything good for writers?) Now Gatsby is recognized as one of the greatest American novels ever. And deservedly so. I reread it not that long ago and I was enthralled once again at the perfection of its prose.

And I need to make the point, forcefully, that mainstream writing is not the same as literature. Mainstream is mainly concerned with style and content; there are dozens or hundreds of books that Bruce Sterling once defined as “slipstream” that take f&sf themes but use them in a mainstream context. Think Atwood’s The Handmaid’s Tale or Lessing’s Planet novels or Rushdie’s Midnight’s Children). (Note: Sterling disavows the word today and it’s current use is inverted – referring to genre writers using mainstream styles.) Mainstream contains as many bad books as any other type of writing, but I’m ignoring bad fiction as much as possible. Good mainstream almost universally has good prose styling; it is the best mainstream that is normally elevated into literature.

But I just said that literature is a judgment of time and posterity. So let’s stick with what Lao Tsu wisely called “lit’ry” for what I’m talking about when it comes to sf (an all-inclusive term).

Which means we start with Ursula K. LeGuin. Gene Wolfe. Michael Bishop. John Crowley. Terry Bisson. Peter S. Beagle. Kim Stanley Robinson. James Murrow. Tom Disch. William Gibson and Bruce Sterling, who can be considered the Hammett and Chandler of modern sf. Ray Bradbury. Zelazny and Delany and Silverberg. Which means I have to mention Harlan Ellison, even though he is not a novelist. But “lit’ry” sf is strongly discouraged in novel length because it doesn’t sell as well (and often can’t be sold to a publisher in the first place) so its real home in sf is in the short story. And that means adding Kate Wilhelm and R. A. Lafferty, James Tiptree Jr. and Michael Swanwick. Kelly Link, whose collection of short stories is marvelous. So are those of Andy Duncan. Ted Chiang. James Patrick Kelly. Connie Willis. Lucius Shepard. Nancy Kress. Neal Stephenson’s Cryptonomicon blew me away but is it even slipstream, let alone sf? Dan Simmons for Hyperion. I know, I know, the Brits have more of a lit’ry tradition than us Yanks and I should be including bunches of them. Life’s like that. And what to do about older writers like Sturgeon and Leiber and Bester, whom I haven’t really read in years but who wrote wonderfully for the 50s?

I’m getting tired thinking. I’ll let someone else do my work for me. Peter Straub just guest edited an issue of the literary journal Conjunctions. (The real editor titled it “The New Wave Fabulists,” which came as a total surprise to all involved. The person who supplies the best explanation of the title wins a prize of twenty-five cents.) But the contents page reads like a roster of “lit’ry” writers of today: John Crowley, Kelly Link, M. John Harrison, Peter Straub, James Morrow, Nalo Hopkinson, Jonathan Lethem, Joe Haldeman, China Miéville, Andy Duncan, Gene Wolfe, Patrick O’Leary, Jonathan Carroll, John Kessel, Karen Joy Fowler, Paul Park, Elizabeth Hand, Neil Gaiman. The Crowley and Hand pieces are particularly exceptional.

And many, many more. Suggest your own. (Does that cover my ass about those I forgot?)

Not every work by any individual is great or even good, let alone every work by all of them. They have many different styles and strengths. I will not debate whether any particular piece or author is good or not (I mean it this time). I do not know what works or which authors will become literature. As I said, literature is actively discouraged by the sf marketplace. You can still do lit’ry, but it’s hard. Vonnegut got out, got acclaim, and got sales – but did anything he write after Slaughterhouse 5 approach his earlier work? Jonathan Lethem and Lewis Shiner are the latest to try to deliberately escape the field. I expect Kelly Link to be next. There is just little place for what they want to write. LeGuin, however, escaped and then came back. The field is richer for her presence.

The field is richer for all of them.
No more essays.