What is it with the BBQ pit forum

[Miller]

@Polerius

That’s exactly what I’m saying. Outside of college kids (and younger), having educated, grown adult acquaintances have a special room to go and cuss each other out, and then return to the rest of the house to continue a civil discussion is unheard of.

I don’t think the behavior of kids is something this board is trying to emulate.

Okay, let’s examine some of the basic flaws in your analogy, then.

First of all, the Straight Dope has thousands and thousands of members. The people who post here are generally unknown to each other - it’s all just lines of text, no faces or real life identities to humanize each other. It’s also a continuous, 24 hour operation, and has been for ten years. And the conversations can play out over the course of weeks, if not months.

All of these are factors that have an influence on how posters behave, that make the social dynamics here drastically different from a dinner party, which has A) usually fewer than a dozen people, B) all of whom are personally known to each other, C) lasts for a few hours at the most, D) which naturally requires that conversations take place in even less time.

So, really, comparing the SDMB to a dinner party is a poor analogy, over all. If you really want a real-world analogy, a better one would probably be a small town. In a small town, Jim and Joe might not really know each other more than in passing. And if they get in a fight one weekend at the local bar, they’re generally not going to start swinging if they bump into each other at the Safeway the following Wednesday.

And the last defense against the idea that the Pit is ridiculous is the practical: it works. A message board that was created, at least in part, as a place to discuss contentions issues like politics and religion is naturally going to get heated - people frequently kill each other over things like this IRL, after all. Even with a strictly moderated “no fighting” rule, people are going to get pissed at each other, and they’re going to want to communicate just how pissed they are. Before we had the Pit, they’d do this by getting as close to the line as they could without crossing it. Problem there is, the other guy would respond by doing the same thing, and the first guy would retaliate, and eventually you’d get to the point where one or both of them are way over the line, and we have to start handing out warnings or even bannings, and we generally don’t want to ban people if we can’t help it: the board is strengthened by having a wide diversity of posters, and the quality of information available here is hurt if the most passionate posters on a given subject (and thus, the most likely to get angry in a conversation about said subject) keep getting banned because they lose their tempers.

Adding the Pit created a much needed forum where people could blow off steam without fucking up their posting privileges. It’s not a perfect solution: you still see a lot of this, “How close to the line can I get?” behavior in other forums, but from talking to people who were around before the Pit was created, it’s clear that this happens at a vastly reduced rate than it used to, and when it starts up, instead of having to quash it and expect everyone to just swallow their emotions, they’ve got an alternative venue where they can fully express themselves.

You may find the behavior that leads to Pit threads to be ridiculous: I would maintain that it’s simply human, but I suppose the argument could be made that there’s really no difference between the two. But the Pit itself, as a forum, is not ridiculous. It’s an entirely practical compromise to maintain the standards of the rest of the board, and in that function, it’s largely effective.

[Guinastasia]

@Erdosain

Oh shit. She just pitted the Pit. It’s… it’s… just too meta. The world may implode. The only thing that can save us now is if she calls the Pit the C-word.

But you’re Pitting her Pitting of the Pit. :eek:

[Chefguy]

@Guinastasia

But you’re Pitting her Pitting of the Pit. :eek:

Would you people please get a room?

[Polerius]

@Miller

And the last defense against the idea that the Pit is ridiculous is the practical: it works.

I agree that it does seem to work, but there are other boards I am aware of where discussions on heated topics take place, and yet these places manage to stay civil without having the equivalent of the Pit.

So, this idea that something like the Pit is necessary for proper board function, because it provides a “release valve” is false. It is not necessary for keeping the discourse civil in the rest of the board.

Second, I think the existence of the Pit may actually make the other forums a bit less civil than they could have been otherwise. Basically, since some posters know that other posters have called them a jerk/asshole/retard in the Pit in the past it’s not as conducive to a civil discourse between these posters outside the Pit. Similarly, since people know that the Pit is just a mouse-click away, they can be obnoxious to others outside the Pit and push the boundaries, since if it boils over, they can take it to the Pit. Again, this is not conducive to a civil discourse between posters outside the Pit. Of course, I can’t prove how the removal of the Pit would affect discourse in the other forums on the SDMB, but as a small data point, I would point out the other boards I know that don’t have the equivalent of the Pit, and where people are more civil and less jerkish towards each other during normal conversation.

[iamnotbatman]

Polerius, I take your point, but I can just as well see it going the other way. Perhaps, for example, the SDMB could benefit from any additional ‘tier’, one whose discourse is even more restricted… call it the ‘academic’ forum. I would welcome such a thing, because I (and this is of course partly my fault) find it very difficult to not get dragged down into petty arguments with those who engage in sophistry. I’m not sure it is always possible to ignore these people, because they can misrepresent one’s position, and leave others (who do not look back at the previous posts) with a false impression. The moderator instructions to “report a post” don’t really make sense without far clearer and more comprehensive rules laid out; presumably it is not illegal to engage in distracting rhetorical games unless it can be proven that it is done in bad faith – something generally impossible to prove in practice.

I personally doubt that removing the Pit would magically make this behavior disappear. Either there needs to be an outlet for complaining about it, or there needs to be much stricter rules and moderator enforcement. I posit that such stricter rules would cripple the SDMB’s user base. Therefore the addition of a third, stricter forum, makes the most sense to me.

[bucketybuck]

@Polerius

I agree that it does seem to work, but there are other boards I am aware of where discussions on heated topics take place, and yet these places manage to stay civil without having the equivalent of the Pit.

So, this idea that something like the Pit is necessary for proper board function, because it provides a “release valve” is false. It is not necessary for keeping the discourse civil in the rest of the board.

Second, I think the existence of the Pit may actually make the other forums a bit less civil than they could have been otherwise. Basically, since some posters know that other posters have called them a jerk/asshole/retard in the Pit in the past it’s not as conducive to a civil discourse between these posters outside the Pit. Similarly, since people know that the Pit is just a mouse-click away, they can be obnoxious to others outside the Pit and push the boundaries, since if it boils over, they can take it to the Pit. Again, this is not conducive to a civil discourse between posters outside the Pit. Of course, I can’t prove how the removal of the Pit would affect discourse in the other forums on the SDMB, but as a small data point, I would point out the other boards I know that don’t have the equivalent of the Pit, and where people are more civil and less jerkish towards each other during normal conversation.

What are you arguing for in this thread? The removal of the Pit? Changes to the Pit itself? Just venting? What, exactly?

[Darth_Panda]

The internet is different than real life. I didn’t think that this was news…

eta: to clarify, the social norms in cyberspace are much different than those in meatspace - primarily due to anonymity. You can see this difference if you look at, for example, just about anything on the internet.

[Cheshire_Human]

@Polerius

… So, this idea that something like the Pit is necessary for proper board function, because it provides a “release valve” is false. It is not necessary for keeping the discourse civil in the rest of the board…

I don’t think anyone claimed it was necessary (I may have missed someone saying that, but I don’t recall seeing anyone say that), but rather that it’s useful for proper board function. It fulfills a desire, and helps to keep behavior elsewhere in check.

Could it be gone, without any noticeable negative effects? Probably. The proper question though, is “would the users like the board better if it was gone.” The answer to that one, IMHO, is “no”.

[Irishman]

And actually, everyone is focusing on one aspect of The BBQ Pit - flaming each other. Technically the Pit offers a forum for heated venting about any topic that’s bothering you. That would certainly be of benefit even if the rules were changed to eliminate the flaming.

[raindog]

“…blowing off steam…”

“…a good release valve…”

“…and it’s a place to vent…”

“…But they were also smart enough to recognize that humans aren’t perfect, and sometimes they need to let loose on somebody or their little heads will explode…”

All euphemisms for what amounts to immature, juvenile behavior unfit for intelligent discourse, and practiced mostly by young adults who haven’t yet developed the maturity and self control that characterizes adult behavior.

[VinylTurnip]

@iamnotbatman

Perhaps, for example, the SDMB could benefit from any additional ‘tier’, one whose discourse is even more restricted… call it the ‘academic’ forum.

Sure. And why not a Taushiro-language forum where Nobel laureates can discuss the transformative hermeneutics of quantum gravity? I’ll bring extra elbow patches and pipes to pass around.

[DianaG]

Elbow patches get me hot.

[Capitaine_Zombie]

@raindog

“…blowing off steam…”

“…a good release valve…”

“…and it’s a place to vent…”

“…But they were also smart enough to recognize that humans aren’t perfect, and sometimes they need to let loose on somebody or their little heads will explode…”

All euphemisms for what amounts to immature, juvenile behavior unfit for intelligent discourse, and practiced mostly by young adults who haven’t yet developed the maturity and self control that characterizes adult behavior.

Oh yeah?! That’s what you think?? Well, I think you’re one big [Continued in The Pitt]

[iamnotbatman]

@VinylTurnip

Sure. And why not a Taushiro-language forum where Nobel laureates can discuss the transformative hermeneutics of quantum gravity? I’ll bring extra elbow patches and pipes to pass around.

Then we would be able to stop encoding our discourse in a cipher involving lowbrow insults scattered among numerous Pit threads.

[raindog]

@Miller

Okay, let’s examine some of the basic flaws in your analogy, then.

First of all, the Straight Dope has thousands and thousands of members. The people who post here are generally unknown to each other - it’s all just lines of text, no faces or real life identities to humanize each other. It’s also a continuous, 24 hour operation, and has been for ten years. And the conversations can play out over the course of weeks, if not months.

All of these are factors that have an influence on how posters behave, that make the social dynamics here drastically different from a dinner party, which has A) usually fewer than a dozen people, B) all of whom are personally known to each other, C) lasts for a few hours at the most, D) which naturally requires that conversations take place in even less time.

So am I to understand that the quantity of people in a conversation and the time span in any given conversation means that people cannot show some modicum of civility and simple good sense?

So, really, comparing the SDMB to a dinner party is a poor analogy, over all. If you really want a real-world analogy, a better one would probably be a small town. In a small town, Jim and Joe might not really know each other more than in passing. And if they get in a fight one weekend at the local bar, they’re generally not going to start swinging if they bump into each other at the Safeway the following Wednesday.

Except everyone in the neighborhood bar recognizes that working out disagreements via fist fights is unacceptable and socially uncool. The owner of the bar certainly doesn’t encourage it (like putting a boxing ring in the corner) and those who persist in behavior are banned form the bar. It’s only the most immature who wake up the next day boasting “Hey, I got in a bar fight last night!”

And the last defense against the idea that the Pit is ridiculous is the practical: it works. A message board that was created, at least in part, as a place to discuss contentions issues like politics and religion is naturally going to get heated - people frequently kill each other over things like this IRL, after all.

You’re kidding right?

Even with a strictly moderated “no fighting” rule, people are going to get pissed at each other, and they’re going to want to communicate just how pissed they are. Before we had the Pit, they’d do this by getting as close to the line as they could without crossing it. Problem there is, the other guy would respond by doing the same thing, and the first guy would retaliate, and eventually you’d get to the point where one or both of them are way over the line, and we have to start handing out warnings or even bannings, and we generally don’t want to ban people if we can’t help it: the board is strengthened by having a wide diversity of posters, and the quality of information available here is hurt if the most passionate posters on a given subject (and thus, the most likely to get angry in a conversation about said subject) keep getting banned because they lose their tempers.

I largely agree with this. But I think you’re missing the reason do this: Anonymity.

I’d be much less likely to pick a fight in my neighborhood bar because of the fear of the consequences, whether that be injury or arrest etc.

Even without the threat of violence I’m much less likely to call someone who I dislike or disagree with IRL a slew of vile names because they know me; they know me, they know my name, they know my face. It’s a much more personal experience. Comparatively speaking, it is downright easy to call someone on a message board a slew of vile names; I don’t see them, I don’t know very well (other their online persona) , I don’t see their face or what my verbal assault does to them, hell, I don’t even know their name.

Anonymity allows me the worst possible behavior without the consequences that RL would impose.

Adding the Pit created a much needed forum where people could blow off steam without fucking up their posting privileges. It’s not a perfect solution: you still see a lot of this, “How close to the line can I get?” behavior in other forums, but from talking to people who were around before the Pit was created, it’s clear that this happens at a vastly reduced rate than it used to, and when it starts up, instead of having to quash it and expect everyone to just swallow their emotions, they’ve got an alternative venue where they can fully express themselves.

I agree with you. But I think that had the expectation been clear from day one maybe the Pit wouldn’t be necessary.

You may find the behavior that leads to Pit threads to be ridiculous: I would maintain that it’s simply human, but I suppose the argument could be made that there’s really no difference between the two. But the Pit itself, as a forum, is not ridiculous. It’s an entirely practical compromise to maintain the standards of the rest of the board, and in that function, it’s largely effective.

I agree it is human, and the reason people behave like this in the internet (and don’t IRL) is because of anonymity.

I suppose this is the best balance. I remain convinced that people are quite capable of showing a modicum of respect and civility (they do IRL) when it is required of them.

[Irishman]

@DianaG

Elbow patches get me hot.

Goes looking for elbow patches.

[VinylTurnip]

@raindog

I suppose this is the best balance. I remain convinced that people are quite capable of showing a modicum of respect and civility (they do IRL) when it is required of them.

People are capable of wearing nothing but starched white shirts with noose-tight ties, too, but sometimes you wanna slip on an “I’M WITH STUPID” t-shirt.

I’m sure there are plenty of online quilting bees governed by Robert’s Rules of Order out there, and if not, nothing’s stopping [the general] you from creating one.

[Una_Persson]

I thought when one was hot, one needed knee patches.

[Miller]

@raindog

So am I to understand that the quantity of people in a conversation and the time span in any given conversation means that people cannot show some modicum of civility and simple good sense?

No, I was just pointing out some of the ways that the dynamic of getting into a fight with someone in the Pit then being civil to them in a different forum is a different social dynamic than getting into an argument with a relative at a dinner party, and then being civil to them at the same dinner party.

Except everyone in the neighborhood bar recognizes that working out disagreements via fist fights is unacceptable and socially uncool. The owner of the bar certainly doesn’t encourage it (like putting a boxing ring in the corner) and those who persist in behavior are banned form the bar. It’s only the most immature who wake up the next day boasting “Hey, I got in a bar fight last night!”

<Shrug> Any analogy breaks down if you examine it too closely, of course, and my “small town” analogy is admittedly shakey. I do think it’s more accurate than the dinner party analogy, but that’s a small achievement.

You’re kidding right?

Not at all. People kill each other every day over these issues. Not so much in the US or Europe any more, thankfully, but even in the West, these are topics that are renowned for causing flaring tempers and intemperate words. There’s a reason why one of the most common rules of etiquette suggests that these sort of topics be avoided at social gatherings.

I largely agree with this. But I think you’re missing the reason do this: Anonymity.

No, I mentioned that in my second paragraph.

I suppose this is the best balance. I remain convinced that people are quite capable of showing a modicum of respect and civility (they do IRL) when it is required of them.

We all need our illusions, I suppose, but I can’t help but note that, civilized as you are - and I do mean that sincerely, btw, you’re one of the more even-keeled posters on this site - you couldn’t help but open up your participation in this thread with a swipe at posters who participate in the Pit.

[bucketybuck]

@raindog

All euphemisms for what amounts to immature, juvenile behavior unfit for intelligent discourse, and practiced mostly by young adults who haven’t yet developed the maturity and self control that characterizes adult behavior.

You have 312 posts in the pit. Just sayin.