None of which Jesus actually fulfills.
I already tried that one…with a cite that showed all the different prophesies that Jesus failed to fulfill.
Remember: “You cannot reason a man out of a position he has not reasoned himself into.”
I’m going to set aside the blatant hypocrisy of those who think misrepresenting Judaism is A-Ok if it results in a conversion to Christianity, while maintaining that Mohammad is a prophet is automatically antithetical to Christian belief. There is no need for discussion or reflection according to this point of view. Personally, I disagree with Jesus of Nazareth a little: I think hypocrisy is a lesser sin, while Jesus expressed outrage at it multiple times in the gospels. So it makes sense for somebody like myself who does not believe in Biblical inerrancy to pass this one over, as I endeavor to keep my eyes clear of wide planks of wood.
As for the OP, I think imperfection and the capacity to perceive imperfection are intrinsic to the human condition. Furthermore in moral contexts the idea of lesser evils is a valid one. Getting your hands dirty is part of being alive, though that doesn’t free you of the obligation to make your best effort. That to me is what original sin is about: dealing with the world and acknowledging that you will hurt others, and that the great bulk of the time that is due to your imperfect but still improvable nature.
Genesis may not have captured all aspects of this situation. But the underlying problem and challenge that it addresses is common and readily observable. Sure some people will blithely paper over their character defects with the phrase, “Well, I am a sinner.” But surely it is clear by now that any philosophy can be caricatured and abused by those of shallow thought and deep insincerity.
I don’t consider that a Prophesy of Jesus, just that Christians use that as such.
Jesus is quoted as saying he would return in his father’s glory while some of them standing there were still alive, it didn’t happen nor did the earth end in that generation. Because it didn’t happen there are some religions that state it didn’t mean that generation, but Matthew also wrote that there was 14 generations between Jesus and David, using the same way we use generation now!
Matthew 24 is a two-fold prophecy wich also warned of the destruction of Jerusalem. (happened in the year 70, by the Romans)
In verse 14 of that chapter: And this good news of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations; and then the end will come.
That was clearly not the case while any of his disciples were still alive. They made great progress with spreading the faith in Europe, Asia and Africa, yes. But all the inhabited world was obviously not covered. (would not be covered in their lifetime)
Jesus is answering their question about the end of the system of things. (end of the world or order of things of the world)
Verse 3: And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world? King James Version
So the part where Jesus is quoted saying: Truly I say to YOU that this generation*+ will by no means pass away until all these things occur. 35 Heaven and earth will pass away,+ but my words will by no means pass away
Is not about the end of the system or end of the world as we know it.
It is a warning about the impending destruction of Jerusalem. Just like The Prophet Jeremijah warned about the same thing for 40 years. (Destruction of Jerusalem by Babylon)
Further…in verse 36: Concerning that day and hour nobody knows, neither the angels of the heavens nor the Son, but only the Father.
This prophecy is repeated by others such as Luke and when you put them together it becomes very clear that one part is warning for those living then and the other part is about the future and Judgement Day.
Satan/The Devil/The Snake/The Dragon:
Revelation12:9 So down the great dragon was hurled, the original serpent, the one called Devil and Satan, who is misleading the entire inhabited earth; he was hurled down to the earth, and his angels were hurled down with him.
There are at least 52 mentions of Satan in the bible. (and 33 of the word Devil) There’s much less doubt about his identity and nature when one puts them together and compares them.
None of which really matters when you get down to the fact that Jesus couldn’t be a Jewish messiah. How many direct Biblical quotes are you willing to ignore?
So - you claim that the prophecy was fullfilled by the destruction of jeruselm - but it had a secret double meaning that still applies.
The only people that look for double meaning in such things are those that are selling something - in this case, the apocalypse - there is simply no other evidence in the bible that any of this had a ‘double meaning’ - its a game you like to play.
Its also a stretch to believe he meant the ‘destruction of Jerusalem’ - not a terrible stretch - but if he did - he could have been a lot more specific - he was, after all, god’s ‘ambassador’.
In the end - the entire section was about NOT worrying about the ‘end’ - it was about doing whats right and not focusing on end of days - but that won’t sell many books, will it?
So - cite for me one scripture that says “those words that jesus said over there? its a twofer”.
also - cite for me Luke 21:8 - whats that tell you NOT to do?
He said not the day or the hour, but is quoted as saying it would happen in that generation. If the stars would fall, the sun not give it’s light, the moon turn to blood it would be more than the destruction of the temple. Even if just the sun wouldn’t give it’s light any longer the earth would be too cold for life, plus Our sun is the only close star in our solar system, if that fell we would be burned alive! Revelations are moot, if Jesus was quoted correctly.
A question was posed about any OT prophecy claiming the gentiles being grafted as "God’s people i.e. Christians.
If you’re gonna make that claim then show the verse.
I linked to a bunch of Old Testament verses that directly showed that Jesus didn’t qualify as any sort of Jewish messiah, and you dismissed that cite out of hand. Why should anyone bother to give you any more Old Testament cites? If I wanted to see hand-waving, I’d go watch a parade.
Mark C 13 verse30. Also Mark C 8v39 and Matthew16 v 27-28 return while some standing there were still alive. Luke 21 v 6-12
So, you google some sort of anti-Christ website, paste some verses, and there we have it - a defense consisting of verses you know nothing about.
Your dancing, Czarcasm, and always do when it comes to any ‘critical thinking’ or reliance on Scripture itself. I know you have no idea just how many OT references and verses were used by the Apostles when referring to Jesus the Christ.
Lastly, I’m hoping you’ll at least retain the fact that “Jews” are not identified exclusively by a fervent belief in OT Judaism, but by ethnicity and other creeds.
Nonsense.
Here are a list of verses recognized by Jews as foretelling the Messiah as identified on the indicated web site from the electronic Jewish Encyclopedia:
Future ideal king:
Isaiah 9: 1 - 6
Isaiah 11: 1 - 10
Isaiah 32: 1 - 5
(The Immanuel passage of Isaiah 7: 14, alluded to by Matthew (1: 23) is not considered Messianic in Judaism.)
Further:
Micah 5: 1, 3 - 8
Jeremiah 23: 5 - 6 and 32: 15 - 16
Jeremiah 30: 9
Hosea 3: 5
Ezekiel 17: 23
Ezekiel 34: 23 ff
Ezekiel 37: 24 ff
Haggai 2: 23
Zechariah 3: 8
Zechariah 6: 12
Zechariah 9: 9 - 10
(In Deutero-Isaiah, the Jewish people, not an individual messiah, will be the source of the salvation of humanity. So, Isaiah 42: 1 - 6, 49: 1 - 6, 50: 4 - 9, 52: 13-53: 12 are not messianic in the sense of a person of the messiah. Although they do refer to the “servant of God” who will convert the nations to the service of God, the “servant of God” in Jewish theology is the Jewish people, and these passages are not considered messianic.)
I assure you that I do know and understand these verses and that many of them are not fulfilled by Jesus’s life on earth or death and resurrection. Continuing in your approach to debate, in which you claim to know what other posters do or do not understand, I will note that most of your arguments appear to be taken pretty much directly from the Moody Bible Institute or the Scofield Bible, neither of which has any credibility among the vast majority of Christian scholars, representing attempts to simply hide from facts (or invent their own) to rationalize a particular interpretation of Scripture.
As to the “number of OT verses” that the Christian writers employed: cherry-picking verses is a long established human tradition. So what?
A clear example of cherry picking employed by those on your side of the debate is the reference to the Immanuel passage of Isaiah 7:14, alluded to by Matthew 1:23. On the one hand, such folks follow Matthew in claiming a prophecy of the virgin birth. However, Matthew was quoting from the Septuagint, a Greek translation of the Hebrew Scriptures in which the Hebrew word for “young woman” was translated rather sloppily to Greek as “virgin.” The very same people then turn around and reject Tobit, Judith, 1st Maccabees, 2nd Maccabees, The Wisdom of Solomon, Ecclesiasticus/Sirach, Baruch, The Letter of Jeremiah, and three of the stories found in Daniel based on the idea that they appeared in the Septuagint and not in the Hebrew scriptures. So the Septuagint is fine to make one claim and terrible to make a different claim.
A proponent of “Jews For Jesus”, an organization dedicated to converting Jews to Christianity though lies and deception, claiming superior knowledge of what it is to be a Jew? It would take a literal miracle for you to establish(not reestablish) the smallest speck of respect for your “critical” thinking when it comes to this subject at this point.
I did not Google any thing. I have read the Bible through over the years at least 24 times. I gave quotes directly from the Bible. I have read both the RC and KJ versions.
You asked for me to cite what cite I used, and I gave them to you. right from the Bible; it is your right to read them or not, or even find a different translation
My apologies, I understood that I was answering your quote to me. I should have made it clear and looked for my quotes.
The Jewish people didn’t see the prophet’s in any of the men before that had made claim to Be the Messiah, They saw it differently than the Christian explanation. There were many who claimed the title and there was one named Simon in 400 BCE who also believed the Messiah should die for the people.
Jeremiah 3:17 King James Version
At that time they shall call Jerusalem the throne of the Lord; and all the nations shall be gathered unto it, to the name of the Lord, to Jerusalem: neither shall they walk any more after the imagination of their evil heart.
Genesis 22:18 NRS Catholic Version
and by your offspring shall all the nations of the earth gain blessing for themselves, because you have obeyed my voice.
And which specific events do you think these verses predicted?
Ruben4ruben. Merely quoting verses is of debating in good faith. Make a better effort to explain yourself in the future.
Warning issued.
Answer: I think that the first one is about the final restoration of mankind after Judgement and the things described in Daniel 2:44, Matthew 24 and Revelation of course. Let’s call it the happy end. PS I identify “Jerusalem” in this verse as the spiritual Jerusalem mentioned in Revelation among others. The Jerusalem in heaven. Not the physical Jerusalem or the current nation of Israel or any location on earth. The old Jerusalem was utterly rejected in 70 AD. (that’s worthy of it’s own topic)
About the second one i personally feel that refers to the fulfilling of the seed of Genesis 3:15. Whom i identify as The Messiah/Khristos being Jesus Christ who i believe indeed blessed, did something great for all nations, races and people. (but that’s another topic)
I gotta rush to the shops so i can’t answer in greater detail right now. Sorry.
Deuteronomy 10:17 The Lord is your God. He is the God of gods and the Lord of lords. He is the great God. He is the amazing and powerful fighter. To him everyone is the same. He does not accept money to change his mind.
Ruth 1:16 and Ruth proceeded to say: “Do not plead with me to abandon you, to turn back from accompanying you; for where you go I shall go, and where you spend the night I shall spend the night. Your people will be my people, and your God my God.
(Ruth was Moabite and became an ancestor of King David)
Moses’ wife was Kushite and God got angry when Aaron and Miriam complained about it: Read Numbers 12
Rahab, from Jericho, was also non-Hebrew and was favored and also became ancestor of King David.
Most important is this statement:
Not for thy righteousness, or for the uprightness of thy heart, dost thou go in to possess their land; but for the wickedness of these nations Jehovah thy God doth drive them out from before thee, and that he may establish the word which Jehovah sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob…” Deuteronomy 9:5 (American Standard Version)
Not because of your righteousness or the uprightness of your heart are you going in to possess their land; but because of the wickedness of these nations the Lord your God is driving them out from before you, and that he may confirm the word which the Lord swore to your fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob. Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition
Compare that to the entire book of Jeremiah and see that God, whether it’s OT or NT, is not partial to anyone because of race, ancestry or any reason whatsoever. It’s about your heart, your deeds, your faith. Every single time the Hebrews as individuals or states, Israel or Judah, strayed to worship other gods or did wrong God judged them. The destruction of Jerusalem by Babylon was not without reason. (read Jeremiah)
The special relation with Hebrews or “Jews” started because God favored Abraham because that man had faith and a good heart. So God chose him to carry his promise of a seed to restore/bless/liberate all mankind. Genesis 3:15. 28:14