What is "Original Sin"?

Great Debates
61

Original sin is a kind of circular chicken/egg thing. In the garden, the first humans were god-pets – capable of language (ISTR Adam was put in charge of naming all the animals) but deeply ingenuous. They could not sin because they had no idea of right and wrong. After they ate the thing, they gained the ability to distinguish right from wrong, and so by that knowledge were capable of sin. The knowledge of good and evil then came to be passed down to their descendants (people will talk) so original sin amounts to the discovery of what wrong is and that it should not be done. If Mary, mother of Jesus was born without original sin, one could take that to mean she was some sort of congenital idiot who could not acquire the knowledge of morality for herself.

Of course, Genesis does not offer us any clues as to what means the early people had to distinguish good and evil, perhaps it was a bunch easier to have a dialog with Jehovallah because he was hanging around. Perhaps there were prophets and holy men who could obtain information and rulings from the almighty (like good old Moses, who finally decided that wrong should be codified so that normal people could just look it up).

Much more interesting is the metaphor of Cain and Abel, a gorilla told all about what that meant.

62

Original Sin is a marketing ploy designed to create a need for the product, in this case, clergy.

63

Do you think babies are born without original sin, so that if they had perfect environments they would be nothing other than angels?

Some do. But proponents of original sin deny this possibility: sin is part of being human. Animals can’t really sin, because they can’t form moral judgments. But humans can. The bite of the apple, in one representation, was a fall upwards - now humans could discern between good and evil. And since they are tempted by evil, sin will always be an issue- the issue in fact according to Christian doctrine.

Buddhists place suffering at the center of the human condition. Christians believe it to be sin and the subsequent alienation from God. The purpose of the church and its rituals is to help the striving believer to bridge that gap.

64

Setting aside the woo part of it, you would have to ask, “Do babies have free will?” When do they gain the ability to make moral judgements?

Because free will is a crucial element to sin. If a woman is raped, she has been involved in what could only be described as a sinful act (unless, of course, it was her husband who raped her). Yet, she was not given a choice in the matter, so though some may consider her defiled, most do not hang a sin on her (unless, gag, she was dressed provocatively).

So “free will” (which has been discussed at length on other threads) becomes an interesting question. Legally, we say that ignorance of the law is no excuse. But if you take an action that results in a sin, can you be considered culpable if you were misinformed (led to believe what you were doing was ok) or ignorant (unaware that this action was considered wrong). Because free will can only be valid if the actor has correct and sufficient information on which to base a choice.

65

As Christopher Hitchens said, we are all born sick and commanded to be well. Why doesn’t god just turn off “the original sin program”? It worked so well with Mary when he shut it off with “The Immaculate Conception Software Patch”.

66

The Christian point of view is closer to: We are all born sick and commanded to go to the Doctor.

You’re mixing metaphors now.

Good question for those who believe in the Immaculate Conception. What answer do Catholic theologians give to this?

67

Also him.
Remember, this is the guy who sacrificed himself to himself. He’s definitely one big bell short of a cathedral.

68

Even closer: We are to be ashamed of our sickness and grovel and telephone a man in a white coat in the hope he will cure us after we die. All the time worrying about the correct way to grovel.

We don’t really know whether there is a man in a white coat at all, as he doesn’t answer the telephone calls.

69

The same man that deliberately infected us in the first place.

70

But the Doctor is so hard to get a hold of. At a given moment, he could be anywhere in space or time.

71

Interesting. Growing up, and in Sunday school and college theology, I was told that the Creation/Fall were symbolic stories with lessons, but that they were not literally true. It’s possible I misunderstood the subtleties of their statements, or possible they misrepresented the subtleties of the church’s position. It’s also possible that the “mystery,” “opinion,” and “symbol” language is once again getting in the way of a clear answer.

I do know that my parents, bastions of conservative Catholic thinking, said it was a teaching story. I don’t think they were worried about the Fall but about figuring out a way around the incest! :smiley:

72

As a very intelligent person once said, “Shhh, the one-time special magic was special and one-time only!”

73

Gabriel sayeth unto Mary, “Thou shouldst act now! This is a one time only deal. Call 800-382-5463. Offer expires at midnight! 800-382-5463! That’s 800-f8c-5g6d, act now!”

74

This is correct, and I’ve often found that Catholics are surprised by this.

In part I think it’s because the RCC does not condemn the Theory of Evolution and does in fact allow portions of Genesis to be interpreted non-literally. The Catechism states, “The account of the fall in Genesis 3 uses figurative language, but affirms a primeval event, a deed that took place at the beginning of the history of man. Revelation gives us the certainty of faith that the whole of human history is marked by the original fault freely committed by our first parents.”

75

I’m not sure this quote is evidence for either a literal interpretation or a figurative interpretation. I think it could easily be read either way, and could even be accused of a certain amount of waffling.

76

Agreed. Just saying there was “an event” in the midst of figurative language isn’t really clearing things up.

77

The original OP was, “if the story of Adam and Eve is a parable, then what is the Original Sin? By implication of the question, it is 1 ‘original’ sin. What is that one sin?
The answer stems from Genesis 3, where the story goes, God tells Adam that he can eat of any tree in the garden except of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. That tree he is forbidden to eat of. That was it, the rule, the one rule that ‘Adam’ had to obey.
Now whether or not the story is a parable or literal, in my mind, become moot. A parable is designed to describe some material truth or fact. A parallel story, if you will. The story says there is one rule. As was earlier stated, the issue is not the bite out of the fruit (apple or otherwise), but rather disobedience. The act that the RCC or other denominations refer to as the original sin, is the disobedience of Adam and Eve. Even if it is a parable, the rule was don’t eat, and the did eat. Oops.
Scriptures in the bible are plethora regarding the nature of sin and the fact that all are sinners, Romans 3:23, Psalm 14 leap to mind. But all of that is, again, moot to the OP. The concept of original sin, as proposed by the RC and many other denominations of the Christian faith all stem from Genesis 3. So that story must contain the answer. What happened there? Disobedience. 1Samuel 15:22 clearly spells that out.
Sorry for preaching

78

IMHO -The original state was selflessness.

The original sin was selfishness.

79

I’m atheist now, but grew up Mormon, a religion which doesn’t believe in an original sin. Mormon doctrine states the babies are born without sin and children up to the age of eight are not accountable. Anyone who dies before they turn eight gets a waiver into the VIP section of heaven. (The celestial degree as it’s called.) Without any original sin, there was no need for an Immaculate Conception.

Mormonism teaches that Adam and Eve did eat of the tree of life, but this was a necessary part of the plan in which everyone (us, too!) who was in the preexistence could come down and get a body which was necessary for eternal progression.

80

It was interesting that I was watching a video about an alternate theory on the interpretation of “sin” depicted in the bible. I am just going to regurgitate what I heard and saw in the video:

The bible contains fascinating physics principles. For example, sin, comes from SINE, which depicts the sine wave that we learn in trigonometry mathematics. In the sine graph, the x axis represents linear time, that is from birth to death. The sine wave, that is the wavy line. The bible abbreviates sine as SIN.
The COSINE wave, which can be abbreviated as COS,

sine wave formula: y=sinx
cosine wave formula: y=cosx.

When these two waves are drawn on the same graph, it has been interpreted that, sine represents TIME and cos represents SPACE, and together, they are symbolic to the planet Saturn.

Sin, why is sin evil we ask? Sin, is seen as time. We are born into SIN because we are born into TIME. Our God/Creator, lives in a TIMELESS place, and as sinners, we are below him, that is, we are the mortals. Sin simply describes MORTALITY. Astronomy and astrology, studied in Greece and Rome, has always associated the planet Saturn to The Grim Reaper.
“The Grim Reaper is always associated with the planet Saturn. But as well as the Greek god Kronos, Roman god “Saturn”, and also ‘Father Time’. Saturn symbolizes the inexorable flow of time in both its destructive and constructive effects. Grim Reaper always appears when someone’s time is almost up. Saturn has been depicted as the punishing father, but also as the Grim Reaper, who cuts life short(with the scythe). Mortality is the ultimate restriction, and as Father Time, he is the wise one that inspires urgency in our quest to fulfill our life mission.”

So all in all, sin is evil because it is the ultimate restriction. If we are created in the image of god, we have godliness within us, but we are restrained, compromised, etc etc.

Born of natural sin, born of natural mortality, of restriction, of inevitable death in the future, of being vulnerable.

Romans 6:23
23-For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal through Jesus Christ our lord.

Time, given enough of it destroys everything. In the revelations, “the beast is Saturn” because it regulates time.

The story is just an analogy of physics, in other words, a way to teach physics to dumb people and make it easy to remember. You remember stupid stories, you usually forget important details and facts.

The stories are written in high physics, containing mathematical codes, atomic weights, reflections, light waves, the cosmos.

Additionally, there is an equation that depicts the 3D model of the sine wave, yes there is a 3D sine wave, that goes along the lines of

z= x+iy = r(cosф + isinф)

and that is where COS I SIN comes from.

There is extensive information out there that links the snake, saturn, death, time from ancient astrology, astronomy, and before you say, oh Astrology is bullshiet. Well, the people did study it for 2000 years, what makes you think your 20/30/40 yearold self has the intellectual capacity to understand what has happened thousands of years ago. We the descendant, just need to give a little more credit to our ancestors, who did, at the very least, continue our bloodline to where we are alive right now.