Maybe this conversation is moving off in different directions, but here is my response anyway 
Arguing about whether or not something is semantics is meta-semantics :rolleyes: I’ll try not to go there if you do the same, deal?
But ok, I don’t have a desire to control the meaning of the word ‘Pagan’ for everyone else. I don’t have strong opinions about syncretized rituals and the variety of their sources, either. I will say that ‘the religion of Numa’ that I’m talking about was strictly outlawed, along with every other non-Catholic religion whereas Shinto was never outlawed AFAIK, and so there is that much less guesswork in viewing ‘source shinto’.
Frankly I know hardly anything at all about Neo-Pagans. Let’s see, they like to party naked? That’s the extent of my knowledge of neo-pagans, or modern pagans, be it a religion or a strictly non-religious ‘fuzzy demographic’ or whatever. I’m pretty ignorant of all that, however…
This isn’t a terrible disagreement then. Yah, that context. I guess I’m speaking of the ‘original’ Paganism. The context is The Roman Empire, so ‘paganisms’ outside of that won’t fit, though there was a bit of overlap across formal national boundaries, which themselves changed quite a lot in the period we’re (or maybe just I am) discussing.
Just to rope in a few points here… as I see it, this original paganism wasn’t a comprehensive worldview or system of thought in the way people think of religions nowadays. There wasn’t really a uniform moral code- an action that gets you rewarded in one story leaves you fucked in the next. A lot of it wasn’t credible- I don’t think people ‘believed’ the text of the stories anyway, in the way people may get excited about the literal truth of a specific message. And it was a jumble- a town might have a temple to Isis or another Egyptian or Greek god, and so it would be ‘different’ religions, and yet all the same thing too. But people didn’t seem to give it much thought, they just kind of accepted the rituals and took the rest as appropriate ‘religious mystery’ or something. Eventually there was much consensus that the whole mess was just unsatisfactory.
But it had been the state religion for over a thousand years, and who knows how long it had been around before that. Once the emperors got excited enough about Christianity to change the state religion and outlaw all others, Christianity became something of a political device. ‘Paganism’ was the old, rival religion and it was specifically targeted, kind of with the flavor of one of the old Roman purges, you know, one group would simply kill off an entire rival family to solidify their position…
Anyway. I can’t say whether or not it was a matter of wholesale slaughter or how credible Gibbon is. Gibbon certainly had access to a mountain of material and couldn’t be wrong about everything, though he seems a little culturally biased. I don’t think he is just inventing the purge of ‘paganism’ though. Consider- there are more Roman ruins in Turkey today than there are in Italy, France, etc. Most of the best ancient architecture had ‘pagan’ connotations, and the Christians went on a rampage tearing it down during the period I’m talking about. Only so many ‘western’ examples remain.
On this topic… destroying buildings gets people’s attention in the cities, but the country-folk may be less influenced by the authorities and slower to change their beliefs. I bet it was the country-dwellers who were the last to give up their old ‘religion’.
Interestingly, it was the emperor’s particular brand of Catholicism which was imposed on everyone- the controversies of the time were all settled by decree. There is a fair chance the authentic Christianity was wiped out during this political process.
Heh. It’s not like this is a personal mission of mine or anything, I’m just trying to give a good answer. Are the neo-pagans still partying naked??