What is Reality?

‘There is a sense in which what the observer will do in the future defines what happens in the past - even in a past so remote that life did not exist, and shows even more, that observership is a prerequisite for any meaningful version of reality.’

– J Wheeler, commenting on the Copenhangen Interpretation of Quantum physics.
Does this mean that the observer literally creates the universe by his observations? This would be against the laws of casuality!

Einstien did not quite agree and in a letter to Schrödinger, he wrote of the adherents of the Copenhagen interpretation that: ‘most of them simply do not see what sort of risky game they are playing with reality.’

There exists, Einstein wrote, ‘a physical reality independent of substantiation and perception. It can be completely comprehended by a theoretical construction which describes phenomena in space and time. The laws of nature imply complete causality.’

So, cause precedes effect… but the actions of elementary particles could not be absolutely predicted, but their actions could only be forecast to a certain level of inexactness through the use of probability functions.

An early implication of this phenomenon was that the measurement techniques used to assess the initial configuration of single particle systems were too heavy handed, and that the measurements themselves so corrupted the system being measured that the results of any subsequent measurements were considered problematical. in short order this conjecture was rejected by many of the prominent theorists and experimenters of the time.

The fact, was that these particles did not, observe the principle of causality. Electrons and protons (as far as experimenters’ measurements could tell) were in specific locations (a physical property) and had speeds (another physical property) with no apparent cause.

That is, no previous measurement of these properties could predict the subsequent measurements of these properties. It was as though the parameters being measured were not really properties of the particles being studied.

A property, in this sense, is an attribute that is an intimate part of the particle, something the particle carries with it into the future until such time that this property is exchanged for another property due to a known cause. Properties were an essential aspect in predicting the future about particles.

When measurements of particles yielded parameters that could not be permanently associated with the particles being measured. then predictability became impossible. and causality was dead.

Einstein who did not like this , had earlier stated that 'Like the moon has a definite position whether or not we look at the moon, the same must also hold for the atomic objects, as there is no sharp distinction possible between these and macroscopic objects.

Observation cannot CREATE an element of reality like a position, there must be something contained in the complete description of physical reality which corresponds to the possibility of observing a position, already before the observation has been actually made.’

So is it all an illusion? Or does causality apply? Did the universe just exist or was the Big Bang the cause for the effect that we see today. Which hypothesis is more easier to accept, everything exists just as we observe it or do all things have a finite position is space/time.

I’m afraid Einstein was wrong on this count. Things get even weirder in the quantum world then the Heisenberg Uncertainty principle suggests. Not only do particles not have a definite position and velocity that we can measure they are actually in more than one place at once until we nail one down (with the uncertainty inherent in such a measurment) with an observation.

Check out information on the “Double Slit Experiment” for proof of this. Further proof can be found in the workings of quantum computers which rely on this. While not very capable quantum computers have been built and shown to work.

Which hypothesis is more easier to accept, everything exists just as we observe it or do all things have a finite position is space/time. ~ novemberromeo

Assuming that “time” exists and the nature of “time” is progressive and directional, then the universe is obviously deterministicly deterministic. Otherwise everthing happened (past and future) at one instance of non-time (whatever that is) and all things are frozen now to occupy all relative positions possible of their so-called timeline forever.

But no matter, as we must operate within the physical limits of our sensing apparatus it is best to think and act in a manner that assumes universal causality.

And as far as I know we humans have yet to observe, must less prove, a single aboslute random event, even after we resort to artfully constructed mathematical shell games such as Quantum Mechanics to make the case.

I think Quantum Theory has a useful function but Schrödinger’s cat is still not both alive and dead.

(And what I just said is part of** reality**.) :slight_smile:

You can call it a ‘shell game’ all you want but that implies some trickery in the math that isn’t reflected in the real world. As it turns out much of QM has been experimentally proven.

As to a ‘single absolute random event’ I think we have seen such things. The creation of virtual particle pairs is a side effect of quantum uncertainty…or randomness.

Is there an order underlying all of this that we simpoly cannot comprehend yet? Quite possibly and I even like to think so but as science stands today we cannot place absolutes.

As to Schrödinger’s cat I agree that it is not both alive and dead. Regardless if I look in the box to observe its state the cat in the box counts as an observer and it knows if it is alive.

Dear Novem:

I must commend you for trying to bring out a topic that is really difficult for ordinary people like me, without academic training in mathematics and physics, in a manner that should be accessible to such as I or me.

Can people like me grasp your kind of topics, even without such background? The answer should be yes. Anyway I will give my own thoughts on reality, what is it; and just maybe I might be hitting something which you are concerned with.

Here it goes:

First, before anything else, there is the human mind, that is you and me and everyone here reading and writing for each other. Now, my mind can talk to itself and it can talk to other minds like itself. The mind talking to itself, that is the reality of the mind, my mind, your mind, each individual’s mind is a reality in itself.

So there is the first reality, the mind of each individual. This mind knows that when it is sleeping profoundly without any dreams whatsoever, or when it is unconscious owing to general anaesthesia, or when it is in a fainting spell, its reality is not present anymore to itself, while it is in any of those three stages, which are stages or states of unconsciousness of the mind. When the mind wakes up, or comes out of general anaesthesia, or regains consciousness from its fainting spell, the reality comes back, namely, the existence of the mind to itself.

What then is reality at this point of discourse? It is the mind, at this point of discourse, meaning insofar as the mind is talking to itself or conscious of itself or can be aware of itself by self-contacting of mind to itself. Here, close your eyes and ears and shut out all sensations of outer world and inner space, and address yourself to your mind, mind to mind that is, there is the reality: the mind of yourself.

Are we getting somewhere? As comic relief, I guess you know the anecdote of Bertrand Russell on mind and matter: What is mind? It’s not matter. What is matter? Never mind. What is mind again? No matter.

The second reality, not necessarily in the order of importance, is that between at least two minds who are communing with each other. That is the reality for example that is the world among us here writing and reading messages from each other. If all the minds talking among themselves should all lose consciousness as in profound sleep, general anaesthesia, or fainting spell, and I should add also in a comatose state; then the reality of the second kind goes out of the stage that is the universe of existence. That includes also the first reality. The first reality maybe we might consider to be God or whatever be the first mind that starts talking to itself. “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and God was the Word, etc.”

Now, the third reality is that reality that all the talking minds, starting with the reality of my mind, know that it exists even without anyone talking about it. For example, mathematical formulas like the square of the hypotenuse of a right triangle equals the sum of the squares of its other two sides.

So, the objects of the mind’s awareness, of there being things outside the mind, and which can continue to be even if minds are not aware of them, for example, stones and dogs and grass and cosmic particles, and of course mathematical formulas, if they do exist when minds are not aware of them, that is the third reality, which third reality is inclusive of all minds which happen to be existing owing to their talking to themselves and among themselves.

For all practical purposes, reality is the mind, whatever and wherever and whenever there is a mind.

If anyone can understand what I am talking about, then you have a working mind, and you are real and that’s reality for you.

Susma Rio Sep

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Milum *
I think Quantum Theory has a useful function but Schrödinger’s cat is still not both alive and dead.

Ye of little faith. Admittedly, common sense dictates the cat cannot simply hang out in some limbo state waiting for us to observe it right? And why? Because it is preposterous and upsetting to our sensibilities to imagine the world does not exist in a concrete fashion independent of our apprehension of it.
No wonder Einstein was pissed. Do the test again…Nope, sorry Bub. Same answer as before. Anyone that understood what they were seeing were ready to commit themselves. It just can’t be. The only problem was, the evidence was irrefutable, and the implications staggering. Jung and Pauli had quite a time with this. I don’t know. The fact that we’re here at all or that there is a place we call ‘here’ to be in is pretty freakin’ strange to begin with. But it is fun to contemplate.

Row, row, row your boat
Gently down the stream.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily,
Life is but a dream.

Sounds pretty quantum to me.

This is a true story.

I fell off a cliff and died and went to Heaven and at the Pearly Gates Saint Peter said, "Milum, you’ve be unkind to your poor pinko liberal brothers on the Straight Dope Forum and on one occasion you lied when you said you considered them bright, so I’m going to send you straight to Hell.

“But!” he hastened to add, " I like the cut of your jibe so I’m going to give you a sporting chance. Here’s my proposition…

You will be allowed to make a statement. If the statement is true you will burn in a fire in Hell forever, but if the statement is false you will be put in a place in Hell where firey hot brimstones will rain on you for an equal length of time. What say you Milum?"

Hmm, this was a tough one, so I thought for about three seconds and then said, “I will be put in a place in Hell where firey hot brimstones will rain on me forever.”

And so thanks to quick wit here I am posting again. :slight_smile:


*The true story above is a paradox, but only a paradox of words. Like the conflicting term “True Story”. Or Schrödinger’s cat.

No totally random event has ever been observed and Schrödinger’s cat was only a word experiment offered by detractors of Quantum Reality that scoffed just that.*

:slight_smile:

Unless of course every event is totally random and ceases to be so at the instance of observation in which case, how would we know otherwise?

Why is the term “true story” conflicting?

Schrödinger’s cat was thought up by those who scoffed at QM. QM does have some disturbing pieces about it that directly contradict how we generally feel the universe ought to behave. It doesn’t change the fact that QM is an exceedingly well tested theory and many of the bothersome details of QM are unavoidable.

Although this paper deals with a subject solidly in the physical sciences. some preliminary discussion must be made of philosophy. Hopefully this discussion of philosophy will provide the proper background for understanding the dilemma posed by the problem being discussed.

The human race, developing in the reasonably constant environment on this planet, acquired a brain with thought processes that were highly accommodated to the flood of information from the senses. Within the human thought processes this flood of information, in the form of photons into the eyes. sound vibrations into the ears, tactile sensations from the skin, came to represent the reality of the physical world. Along with this concept of reality. humans acquired. as part of their increasingly complex and useful thought processes some other concepts that helped them adapt and to prosper. One of the important concepts that the brain acquired was that of causality. Things happened for a reason. For example. The house was at the edge of the village because your uncle had it there before going off to war/ The river was flooded because heavy rains increased the amount of water flowing down the channel. The boat floated because the water it displaced weighed more than the boat. This concept of causality was even extended to circumstances for which no direct cause was readily apparent. Perhaps a large rock well had been there for as long as anyone could remember, but people still believed that there was a time when it wasn’t there and that something had caused it to be there. Some things could not be explained early on, but reasonable explanations were found later, leading to the conviction that, ultimate explanations would be found for all physical phenomena. The notion of causality was a useful one that would carry the human race well in the study of science right up to the point that people started to study the physical that existed beyond their basic senses.

Philosophy was the early plaything of thinking men. Delving into philosophy, men like Aristotle were able to answer the profound questions of their day. All questions, they concluded, could be resolved by proper application of deductive reasoning to a compact set of “well accepted” facts, just as Euclid developed his geometry from a hand full of simple axioms. Unfortunately, the ancient philosophers continued this approach right on into the study of nature. Experimentation was considered disrespectful of the mind. If improperly performed, the experiment could only contradict the already known correct, answer. If properly performed. the experiment was useless, merely regurgitating the correct answer. The results of this approach were bizarre by today’s standards. Human veins did not have blood in them, but air instead (and nobody consider verifying this by vivisection). The earth was the center of the universe. Despite the astounding advancements in the understanding of nature that came with the increased used of experiment in the 16th and the 17th centuries, some of the old habits still persisted. Why were there exactly six planets? Because six was the philosophically correct number. Then three more major planets were discovered.

As a result of these early, unsavory experiences, men of science developed a distinct aversion to purely philosophical arguments and to purely philosophical motivations, as well. Pragmatism, ruled the laboratories completely if not the lecture rooms. What mattered was results.

A fire truck drives down the road. We agree it is red. Along time ago, you were taught what red means. So was I. Now what you see as red, I might see as green. And what I see as red, you may see as blue. Light frequencies being what they are, this is highly improbable. But that is not the point. We are in agreement that what ever color we personally perceive when we see the fire truck go down the road is “Red.” Thus the world is an agreement. Even if we each see a different color, we both see the color we were taught to know as “red.”
We are then simultaneously the victims and the beneficiaries of our lingual concepts. A newborn perceives the world as it is. Slowly we build up concepts like “red” and “fire truck” in our mind so that we can develop a mental image of what is out there and have a means of processing it. And now, with a verbose set of concepts, we adults, who know better now, mistake the mental concepts for the real world. In our hubris, we scoff when someone is delusional enough to suggest our agreed upon concepts do not constitute reality but rather are only built up models of whatever is going on behind a veil we can never get around.

But then again, maybe they were right about the brown acid.

You have to define what you mean by the word “reality”.

As i see it, there are two possible definitions:

1 - Objective or Physical
In this case, it is basically defined by the various “hard” sciences, in particular quantum physics and relativity. Although they may not be correct (although every experimental result so far is in agreement with them) they are the best description of physical reality we have so far.

2 - Subjective or Mental
This is for more important for the average person. Science will never be able to explain or describe the subjective feeling of emotions. You have to experience emotions to know what experiencing them is like. In this case reality is a mismash of thoughts, desires, emotions, social relations, everything that makes us human.

In third grade, my teacher posed the “if a tree falls in the woods…” question to us. Her answer at the time was “it does not make a sound” because sound is a result of someone hearing a noise.

I did and still do not believe this is correct. As Einstein stated, there is an objective reality that exists regardless of our perception. If I come across a fallen tree, I can assume that it made a sound because every other tree that I have observed fall has without exception made some kind of noise. I can therefore postulate a physical law of nature - a falling tree makes a noise regardless if there is an observer nearby who can hear it.

So what if there isn’t anyone around at all? Say that there is no life in the universe. Does it still exist? Well we know the universe existed long before there was life. It will probably exist long after the last populated star system goes supernova or falls into a black hole. Does the fact that no one is around to hear it make it any less “real”?

We know that reality exists. Now the hard part is explaining “why”.

Why is the term “true story” conflicting? ~ Whack-a-mole

Just a handy streach** Whacka**, to extend the St. Peter paradox and the Schrödinger’s Cat paradox in order to underscore the fact that all three are paradoxical only in a semantic sense and that words are fuzzy little creatures and are never absolutes.

True = that which is real.
Story = 2. a piece of fiction. (synonym) fib.

Get it? :slight_smile: Oh well…:smack:

Quick wit indeed! a brilliant maneuver. However you might have overlooked this one point:

Many would contend that the SDGDMB *** is*** a place in Hell where firey hot brimstone rains on you forever."

That would make your statement true. Sorry Milum, you might just burn in hell forever afterall. :eek:

We know nothing of the sort.

To quote Woody Allen, “reality is still the only place to get a good steak”. :slight_smile:

I believe the notion of objective reality is flexible enough to encompass quantum uncertainty. Imagine that an electron is in a state such that if it is observed, there is a 50% chance it will be spin-up and a 50% chance it will be spin-down (electrons can only be fully aligned or fully antialigned with an external magnetic field; they are never observed to be in an intermediate orientation). The objective reality, in this case, is that the electron is in a definite and precise state that can be described by listing all the possible outcomes of an observation and the probability of each outcome.

One problem with this idea is that if I say the electron is in such a 50% up, 50% down state; and you subsequently observe the electron and find it to be spin-up, we won’t know if my description of its state was accurate. There is no way for a physical observer to determine the quantum state of another physical system, which is an undesirable feature for a theory of reality to have.

This is not a consequence of Heisenberg’s uncertainty relation, which is merely a statement about what states are possible. It is an empirical fact that disturbing a system in a way that results in a measurement causes it to enter a “pure” state corresponding to a single “classical” outcome. The reason for this is not fully understood, though great progress has been made in recent decades. I think we know enough now about the thermodynamic origins of this process, known as decoherence, that far-out speculations about the physical impact of human consciousness and the like are no longer credible.

No longer credible? Or no longer necessary within the theoretical framework? Can you elaborate?

First off to answer the op question.

What is reality?

Reality is that which we presume exists whether we perceive it or believe it or not. It is by definition that which exists independently of all other things. Ultimately we accept its existence on faith for all we ever have are our perceptions of it and our perceptions are of neccesity limited and limiting. I believe that reality exists; I do not really know so. But since nothing else makes sense to me without the assumption of a reality, questioning that assumption, ala Matrix, is of little utility.

Given this definition, which is the only definition of reality that I believe is meaningful, the concept of observation creating reality is nonsensical. Someone who wishes to define reality as that which exists only by virtue of having been observed is asked to offer up a different definition of the word.

Quantum Theory is just that, a theory. It fits observed data rather well but far from perfectly, hence the need for other theoretical attempts, such as String Theory and so on. A GUT is still to be created that fits it all. All theories are metaphors for the presumed reality, this one is poetry written in high level math, but a metaphor it still is.

Other metaphors may explain the same data, including some that may not have been created yet. Imagine for instance that all particles actually do exist in 11 dimensions and some have more freedom to move in some of those dimensions than do others. Some are oriented differently in these dimensions than others. Matter has most freedom of motion in three spatial dimensions, antimatter is oriented slightly askew in other dimensions, photons can move about a bit more freely in all than other particles. Suddenly things can get all twisted up in a hurry, equal amounts of actually mirror image antimatter can still exist just skewed out our percieving all of it and looking like it is not mirror image even while it really is, photons can appear to travel through both slits by virtue of traveling in a plane above them. Does this fit all the data? How the Hell do I know? I’m not a particle physicist. But it fits some and just because one theory currently is the leading contender doesn’t mean that it is … reality.

Don’t forget that those Greek epicycles of all revolving around the Earth also mathematically fit the observed data of its time. They just weren’t the most elegant way to explain it, and didn’t predict some future observations.