Oops, my apologies… I missed the part where Patience Jones said many men, meaning not all. I retract the accusation of overgeneralization to all men. I’m sorry, Patience Jones.
(damn the short edit window!)
Ok, I will say it. Men can’t understand sexism from a personal perspective of experiencing it because the very definition of sexism is the systematic treatment of one gender as lower than the other. Historically, this has been women. What you are saying is that men can experience gender discrimination or repercussions of failing to adhere to gender norms and expectations. Sexism isn’t “experiencing social expectations due to gender”.
Indeed, this is a good example of what I’m trying to explain. Men are punished socially for acting like women do in a stereotypical fashion, which still holds to the idea of women being treated as the second class gender in society. They are receiving repercussions for failing to adhere to gender expectations and they are being punished by being identified as the gender oppressed by sexism.
Absolutely men experience bigotry, gay people experience bigotry, disabled people, people of varied races and ethnicities. But specifically the bigotry associated with being a woman? No. I could never say what it’s like to be discriminated against because I’m black because I’ve never been black, and I don’t substitute my experience for being discriminated against because I’m a woman to say that I have experienced discrimination of one form and therefore I can empathize with all forms.
Yes, they love their family members very much. But no, they can’t feel that person’s pain or experience that person’s experiences just because they love them. Look at the large volume of male posters who are participating in the number of discussions saying “I had no idea it was like that for you, I am learning a lot from this discussion”. Knowing and loving women does not make you able to empathize with what it’s like to be treated poorly specifically because you are a woman.
The problem I have is how easy it is to slip into ‘if you don’t agree with me you must be -ist/uninformed.’ Humans do that, feminists are no exception.
Thanks, moriah. No harm done.
Ladyfoxfyre is doing a great job articulating my point of view.
Okay. Do you have anything you’d like add to the discussion? Believe me, I’m all ears.
Well, I already did, but your attitude makes me skeptical about being all ears.
I Find your examples of male discrimination a wonderful example of missing the point. Boys aren’t being discriminated against when they are told not to be like a girl. It is the girls who are being discriminated against. What is the message? It is" to be like a girl is shameful" I taught a course in prejudice and one boy said " to be man you have to be aa unlike a female as you can",when I do this with adults I ask how many women were tomboys ,hands shoot up with pride. How many were mamas boys?none !
Another point you make is men are discriminated because they are gay or disabled. Those are not male issues.
But I do agree you can be supportive of women, but only women can feel it.
It seems you just swapped from a “normal” definition of sexism to a sociological definition of sexism.
Sexism doesn’t have to be systematic to be a problem. If you set up the definition of sexism such that only women can be victims, then you are setting up a standard ripe for abuse.
No, actually it’s the colloquial definition of sexism to mean “any type of discrimination based on gender”. Just like racism in the US specifically refers to the historical disenfranchisement of black people. Not any race-based discrimination. So, as a white person, I cannot say that I legitimately have been the victim of racism. Race discrimination? Maybe (probably not though). And men can be victims of sex discrimination or be punished socially for failing to adhere to gender norms. But have they been the victims of sexism as an institution? I would argue not directly. The gender norms they have to adhere to in order to avoid being cast as “feminine” or “women” are an indirect result of sexism against women.
Before, in post #22, you agreed to the definition of “sexism” put forth by XT in post #15. Are you now revising your position?
[QUOTE=ladyfoxfyre]
Why?
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Because at the root of it, sexism depends on the assertion that the sexes are different. And therefore that behavior towards one sex (usually women) is perfectly reasonable behavior when it would fail the litmus test of being appropriate behavior towards people in general (thus also towards men). Or, reciprocally, that behavior that would be condemned in one sex (usually women) is quite deplorable conduct indeed when that sex engages in it, although it would be viewed and tolerated very differently when the other sex engages in it.
Example a: Guys being very pushy / insisting that being invited into a woman’s apartment for any reason is code-behavior for “she wants sex” and that therefore it is reasonable GUY behavior for a guy to be verbally and physically sexually aggressive at that point. Because when the person is a GUY, well, he’s expected to make sex happen cuz somebody’s gotta do it and that somebody is the guy. So his behavior is reasonable GUY behavior but her behavior is rather foolish GIRL behavior, asking a guy into her apartment when she didn’t really want sex. Which she probably did, since acting like you don’t want sex when you really do is normal GIRL behavior. Cuz the sexes are different and all.
Example b: Woman gets called a slut and a whore for being sexually active with plural numbers of guys including many she has no interest in dating subsequently, and/or hasn’t known very long at the time. The guy who calls her that is very annoyed because she became very picky suddenly when it was him who was the sexual possibility in question, I mean he was coming on to her and everything and it was already established that she puts out, and for guys who aren’t her boyfriend, so it is quite reasonable for him to be angry and remind her that she is a slut and a whore and should put out for him too. Otherwise she is leading him on. You know what guys are like when they sense sexual availability in a female, it’s normal for them to want to hit that. And she’s being tolerated despite being kinda deviant and putting out so indiscriminately, which means she is of low moral character and all that, because it’s fun for him, but not if he doesn’t get any, ya know? Cuz the sexes are different and all.
I think you’ve confused generalizations and prejudices, AHunter3.
In post #22, you were referring to its application in a moderating decision. I am discussing the more expansive impacts of sexism at the moment.
So for the purpose of moderation on this board, it is possible for there to be sexism against men?
No, sexism presumes that one gender is inherently better or worse than the other. Of course the sexes are different. The harmful part is the designation of one as superior or inferior to the other. Because the behavior in question is going to be different depending on which gender it’s directed at, inherently because the genders are different and the history is different. A man telling a woman to “calm down, sugartits” is going to have a far more impactful message based on a history of patronizing treatment of men towards women than if he said it to another man, where that history doesn’t exist.
I believe it’s possible for there to be statements made against men as a group which are offensive and designed to denigrate them. I do not believe it occurs to the extent that it does against women in the sense that we need to discuss a “sexist against men” culture on this board. Since that culture does not exist here against men, I would say men on this board are not suffering from sexism in any form.
A stereotype is a generalization, and most isms are anchored in and defended by reference to how “those people are”. (Different, in other words).
Not all generalizations are destructive, wrong, or for that matter dispensible. Our thinking depends on pattern-recognition, after all. But I don’t see anything good to be gained by having an environment that supports a lot of stereotypical generalizations about how men and women ARE. More carefully crafted ones about observed BEHAVIOR, especially if they don’t get anchored in an assertion about built-in differences and a blindness to surrounding context, are a different matter.
So men can’t experience sexism, and if they did it would really be sexism against women?
Nice way to define your way through a discussion.
Also, your post denies racism referring to any other race other than black people. I’m sure everyone who isn’t black or white feels nice and excluded.
If the moderation policy on this website changes to accommodate your non-standard definition of sexism, I really have no interest in continuing here. I have seen that sort of rot on several other communities, and the end result is a big batch of oppression olympics and a stifling of any opinions that might possibly imply that women, any non-white person, or anyone of a GSM might not be a saint or that they are not infallible beings of pure light.
I specifically said men can and do experience gender discrimination. They are also the victims of bigotry against men. Do they suffer from the institution of sexism? No.
I specifically said within the US, racism as an institution has historically meant the discrimination against black people in this country, which I have no experience with. Certainly other non-white groups experience racism in this country also, but the dominant group that has been engaging in racist behavior in this country is “white”. Just like the group who has benefited most from the institution of sexism in this country is “men”.
I was specifically asked what my thoughts were regarding sexism, which I’m trying to have a discussion about. If you don’t like it, fine, but I’m not saying my feelings on sexism in our culture in general should be used to moderate the board. I must have mistakenly felt this discussion evolved into a larger discussion on sexism, rather than a discussion about how sexism should be specifically defined for the purpose of moderating the board. My mistake.
If I remember the OP correctly, all it asked for was a working definition of “sexism” for the purpose of moderation of this message board. It didn’t specify any specific type.