Okay.
Fine, then I’m done here. Like I said, I must have been mistaken when I felt like the discussion had moved beyond the parameters of your OP and thought I could contribute more to the discussion. Clearly that wasn’t desired.
But you also revised the position you agreed to earlier when you later said:
In that post you were definitely talking about sexism as it pertains to this board, and not any larger context.
I think I see what you’re saying–that because sexism requires a fundamental power imbalance between the genders, sexism against men doesn’t occur. Is this a fair summary?
If so, that’s fine. But I think it also means that we need to be talking about gender discrimination more. If men, by definition, cannot suffer from sexism, then men can certainly suffer from gender discrimination.
Granted that doesn’t happen nearly as often with men as with women. But suffering doesn’t happen in the aggregate; it happens in the specific. And while we should absolutely recognize the “death of a thousand cuts” phenomenon, while we’re at it it’s worth recognizing specific incidents of discrimination against men and condemning them.
For example, in the whole brouhaha over the last several days, there were several people who faced personal insults along the lines of, “you’ve clearly never had sex and you never will.” These people were all of the same gender. And they were facing a gendered insult. And it wasn’t based on comparing them to women–there was no female stereotype in play here. While such insults may be permissible by the Pit’s rules, I’d suggest that they constitute gender discrimination.
They’re nowhere near as bad as pervasive anti-women insults, sure. But can we simultaneously acknowledge that and acknowledge that they’re kind of obnoxious and something to avoid in the future?
Because you specifically asked me in reference to this board.
Men should just accept that any male bashing is good humor: “Boys are stupid, throw rocks at them”. But if a man says anything offensive to women he should be penalized. This is the male privilege in society and so it must be here.
This was the series of quotes. Now you seem to be asking me, well you were talking about culture in general, now you’re referring to the board, which is it? It’s because I was responding to your specific question to bring it back to the board application!
Bullshit. You have men arguing that women bashing is “teasing” and that it would be the height of censorship to stop them. Male bashing is not acceptable either, the difference is, it doesn’t happen with the frequency as it is directed against women.
So, I put in one example of feminization, which I said is wrong, and that’s the only one you latch onto to make the case that that is really anti-female sexism. OK, leave that one out. Address the fact that men are demeaned in ways that are not anti-female when they don’t live up to cultural male stereotypes. A weak male gets bullied. There. No feminization or anti-female sexism there. But, it is a case of a man being persecuted for being a man not conforming to male stereotypes. Like when a woman berates her husband for being a ‘little man.’ That isn’t anti-male sexism?
I’m glad we agree because I pointedly said they weren’t, but analogous experiences of being discriminated.
If a man can feel the pain and shame and harmful consequences because of the bigotry that comes from belonging to a class ‘X’, then why can’t he sympathize with women who feel the pain and shame and harmful consequences because of the bigotry that come from belonging to class ‘Women.’?
And your two statements, in reference to this board do not match up. The first is about “people of the opposite sex”, and in the second you revise it to say that sexism on this message board can only be directed at women. Those are not two different contexts being referred to.
I did not get this from your earlier posts (and I fully admit the error might be mine and I’m too lazy to go check)–but I think other folks aren’t getting this either. So I’m quoting it here to make it clear: if you’re arguing that LFF is okay with male bashing, you’re wrong, and the conversation probably shouldn’t continue predicated on such an assumption.
I specifically said men can and do experience gender discrimination. They are also the victims of bigotry against men. Do they suffer from the institution of sexism? No.
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I usually refer to that as the institution of patriarchy. Sexism = gender discrimination; patriarchy = specific historical oppression of women taking specific form and having specific manifestations in our culture. Depends on sexism to perpetuate itself. Not compatible with equality.
For what it’s worth, I completely agree with this.
I don’t particularly disagree with any of that. And I can see you’re talking about a convention on responding to arguments rather than a rule, so I won’t quibble over this.
I said I didn’t believe they were experiencing sexism on this board.
Do you believe that it is possible for men to experience sexism on this board?
I don’t think that the issue of “patriarchy” and sexism are unrelated, it’s just a method of describing the historical mentality that allows sexism to continue to exist. Gender discrimination is a thing. Sexism is a thing. Why is it that all people suffering from gender discrimination want to be described as being victims of sexism?
Thank you. There is a contingent of posters who wade into conversations like this to say inflammatory things such as “but all male bashing is hunkey dorey and if we can just kill all men that would be great!”, trying to make it seem like there is some deeply ingrained hypocrisy evident in the discussion. Like we are simultaneously decrying sexist commentary against women WHILE furthering and encouraging discriminatory commentary against men. This is simply not true, and arguing that men are not victims of sexism while arguing that they can be victims of gender discrimination does not equate to “open season on insulting men”.
Unless the entire culture of the western world shifted to the point at which men were considered the lesser of the two genders, and institutionally discriminated against, no. If that changed and men were suddenly viewed as dumber, weaker, and whose input on society were less valuable, they could be the victims of sexism. Just like any man anywhere could be.
But they can now, and are currently, victims of gendered insults and discrimination.
Thank you very much – at least here there is some balance. Even though I spend too much time online I do visit grocery and other stores. And the greeting card section always reminds me of how privileged I am.
So “sexism”, when it comes to the moderation of this board, actually means “sexism against women”, according to your definition?
Note that I’m not saying that you are wrong-I’m just asking for as clear a definition as possible from people.