About what/how so?
Sure they can! I never said men couldn’t recognize sexism, or understand a woman’s perspective. I was disagreeing with the idea put forth that because men can suffer from one form of bigotry that they immediately have the capacity to empathize with what it feels like to suffer from all forms of bigotry. Or because they “love women” that they understand it. Because a lot of men in these threads have come out to say “I really didn’t get it was that bad for you, but it’s been enlightening to hear you explain it”. Bigotry feels different depending on the kind of bigotry it is. It differs in degree as to how entrenched that bigotry is in culture, how it affects all parts of your life. But absolutely male moderators can and should and DO determine when things are offensive to all manner of people.
These kinds of questions help to further focus the definition of “sexism” when it comes to this message board.
Can you please answer why gender discrimination is an insufficient descriptor to the type of behavior you’re attempting to have me classify as sexism?
No, they really don’t. I get the very clear impression you’re just playing an intellectual game here, for no purpose of clarification as it relates to the moderation of this message board.
No-I’m trying to find out exactly what people mean when they talk about “sexism”, and whether different people have diferent definitions. To find something like that out, it is essential that any definitions given be as precise as possible.
I frankly don’t believe you. I’ve provided multiple examples and definitions which you should be able to take away something of substance from. Instead, you appear to be engaging in a pedantic exercise as Giraffe expressed.
I’m sorry you feel that way, but I think my questions have lead to clarifications of your initial statement in post #22.
My two cents for what it is worth.
Czarcasm is correct that sexism against men is possible depending on the setting.
ladyfoxfyre is correct that, in society at large, sexism is overwhelmingly a concern as it relates to sexism against women.
ladyfoxfyre is also correct that the types of sexism likely to be encountered here are exactly the types that exist in society at large.
Czarcasm is correct that the issue of whether sexism against men is possible depending on the setting is significant, exactly because a message board is not society at large - it is a community with its own rules and its own power structure - significantly, the power of the mods to ban users who break the rules. Indeed, that is exactly what ladyfoxfyre and others wish the mods to do, and what this thread is (presumably) in aid of.
Do they? I don’t believe they do. I think a far more productive course of action would be for you to be up front on your position on the issue, given that you clearly have one, and then solicit input to the extent that you’re actually interested in other people’s opinions and not simply out to reinforce / prove the superiority of your own.
Clarification-I never said this. All I did was attempt to ask if it was possible under certain circumstances.
Exactly–it’s better to just not engage. Especially when all your statements are met with fairly brainlessly leading questions. it’s not like there’s an honest dialogue going on.
My mistake.
As astonishing as you may find this, some people actually ask questions to find out things. My views on sexism may very well grow and evolve from what I read in this thread, which is why I am asking for as many details and opinions as possible.
edited to add: Would you happen to have an opinion on the matter?
Some people do. Others ask questions as a way to try to expose perceived flaws in positions they don’t agree with by exploiting the fuzzy, qualitative nature of social interactions and thus paint a concern as ill-posed. In both cases, though, I think participants of a thread benefit more when there isn’t simply a one-way flow of information but a free exchange of ideas.
To this end, why not share your own views? Are the concerns about sexism expressed by female posters in recent threads here legitimate, i.e. in your opinion should action be taken by either the moderators or the posters to address them? Why or why not?
I think that sexist posts have become a problem on this board and should be dealt with by the moderators as they reported. Sexism against female posters especially is an ongoing problem that should be focused on.
And you?
I think the subparsing of terms is important in that it clarifies a distinction that ladyfoxfyre is making that I and others have not been making. However, there does come a point when your overparsing begins to cease looking like an honest exploration of terms and begins to look like a rules-lawyering kind of rhetorical trick.
As I understand what ladyfoxfyre is saying, sexism refers to the institutional and sociological level power imbalance based upon sex. As such, in Western culture (and probably most current cultures), sexism applies to the repression and degrading of women, and cannot apply to men, because men have historically and culturally held the power. Gender discrimination is the term reserved for mistreatment based upon sex differences that do not rely on the cultural power imbalance. As such, men and women can experience gender discrimination, but only women can experience sexism.
Of course, I am a loss to see how women can experience mere gender discrimination, as it would seem to me all gender discrimination aimed at women is inherently wrapped with the societal views. But then we seem to be making two separate terms, one for women and one for men. And that seems a bit sexist to me.
But rather than get tied up in terminology disputes, I would ask ladyfoxfyre if her desire with respect to board moderation is to address sexism by her definition, or if her desire is to address gender discrimination, and thus by default address sexism?
What an excellent post.
Yes. I felt it was pedantic and not necessary to fuss out the finer points of my position, but to stage a “gotcha!”
I would agree with this, I would say that there must be an example of women facing gender discrimination that doesn’t fall into the category of sexism per se. Maybe you could say that gender discrimination can be a form of sexism but not all gender discrimination is sexist? I honestly think the closest parallel is the idea of racism. Racism is inherently beneficial for whites in the US, and has been detrimental for people of all other races (most prominently blacks but certainly other races as well). So, while whites can be victims of racial discrimination by non-whites, they are not victims of racism, because it does not fit into the broader context of institutionalized discrimination. Maybe that’s a sloppy analogy.
When this first started, I would say that my experience has only been on the side of being exposed to sexism. I really don’t see a widespread issue of gender discrimination against men in the postings on this board, but I could be wrong. I just don’t see the women on this board posting lascivious or gendered and derogatory insults to men like they’re receiving. However, just like a lot of men and a lot of male moderators didn’t see the sexism until it was pointed out to them, I might be missing it also. I would say striving to eliminate both is a good goal, but my experience is to be on the receiving end of sexism, so that’s what my focus has been on thus far.
[QUOTE=ladyfoxfyre]
When this first started, I would say that my experience has only been on the side of being exposed to sexism. I really don’t see a widespread issue of gender discrimination against men in the postings on this board, but I could be wrong. I just don’t see the women on this board posting lascivious or gendered and derogatory insults to men like they’re receiving. However, just like a lot of men and a lot of male moderators didn’t see the sexism until it was pointed out to them, I might be missing it also. I would say striving to eliminate both is a good goal, but my experience is to be on the receiving end of sexism, so that’s what my focus has been on thus far.
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There are racist and sexist attitudes that are so deeply ingrained and embedded in our collective thinking that a lot of the time we don’t even notice it until it’s pointed out. That’s sad, but it’s something that constantly has to be brought up and pointed out so that we, collectively can see it and start the long process of modifying our attitudes and realizing the pain that can be caused just by a failure to even see that pain is being caused. We’ve come a long way in my own lifetime, but still have a long way to go.
As for the topic of this thread though, I don’t think we need special rules about sexism or racism beyond the ‘don’t be a jerk’ rule. Obviously, if something said is demeaning to an individual then that should be reported…and the mods have to look at it seriously, in the context of the discussion. But they also have to take into account a lot of other factors when handing down warnings or bannings. Hopefully, this thread will have them rethinking some of the things that people are sensitive too wrt derogatory comments concerning women. I know that I’ve flagged posts that I thought were derogatory and was told that attitudes and language different from my own.