What is the cause of anti-UN fervour in the US?

I’m not quite sure how you’re defining “responsible”, if you think the definition would include China. How about the ex-Soviet Union? Was that a responsible government? “Responsible for the deaths of countless innocent people”, maybe…

Ooh! Ooh! [waves hand wildly in air] I have an example! How about the fact that Iraq has failed for the past decade to comply with inspections, and the response of the UN is “lets send in more inspectors”? And then the US decides to be firm, and Saddam says, “Okay, I’ll allow you unconditional inspections, with the following conditions…” and the UN responds with, “Oh, okay, that sounds reasonable.”

Of course, I’m sure that I confirm your “theory”, since you seem to equate “doesn’t share your opinion” with “is a complete ignoramus”.
Jeff

My two cents to answer the OP:

Americans, more than non-Americans, value competition over cooperation, and they view the world as a competitive arena. The UN is viewed in the US as a forum where the planet’s losers whine about their fate and lay blame on the successful, especially the US.

Bear in mind that the US is a big country and even in small nations not everyone is of one mind. I am aware that this is a generalization, but I believe it to be an accurate one.

Well, I just went to my first T.R.I.M. meeting last night (Birch Society) and they did give me some literature to read, mostly about the U.N. as its almost United Nations day.
I have to say i agree with them on everything.
I think the link is http://getusout.org

Hmm, vanilla, that does confirm the idea that the US is rapidly developping into a rogue nation.

Of course. vanilla is our Secret Leader. Where she goes, we all follow.

Is the rolleyes really necessary?

Sua

:confused:

What…because Americans are disillusioned for whatever reason with the UN that makes them a rogue nation? That people are advocating leaving the UN makes the US a rogue nation? Give me a break, Latro.

First of all, most Americans are not really that disillusioned by the UN and they don’t hate it. Look at the latest polling regarding US action in Iraq. A strong majority only wants to go if the UN gives approval. Doesn’t look like there’s a lot of UN-hating there. Americans routinely give to such UN organizations as UNICEF and such.

If there IS in fact, some sort of disillusionment, it is likely confined to the General Assembly, which is seen as a sort of larger, more useless version of Congress (which routinely gets negative polling numbers). Which, in fact, it sort of is.

The other thing you have to get into is that Americans don’t like authority figures. We really don’t. No real rational reason, just a cultural thing. We don’t trust our corporate leaders, our union leaders, our state government leaders, or our national government leaders. And the distrust gets larger the further removed from us that the authority is. Now, the UN is pretty far removed. First, it’s a global institution. Second, we don’t get to vote directly or semi-directly (Electoral College type deal) on our representative in the UN. Did I mention it’s also a global institution, meaning in terms of voting, Americans don’t have as much say as we feel we should (in the GA, I mean). That leads to a distrust of the UN. But that isn’t the same thing as Americans not supporting it or feeling it provides a useful service or that most want to leave the UN. I mean, we don’t trust the Dept. of Education, either, but look what happened when Republicans tried to scrap it. However, don’t expect the US public to want to give the UN more authority without guaranteeint the exact same rights as are in the Bill of Rights and the US Constitution. That’s really the only thing we do trust.

Anyway, in summary, the OP is simply wrong on its face and ignorant about the US and its attitudes and culture.

I’d just like to take a minute and respond to some points raised by Sua Sponte earlier, regarding the Ma’dan.

As you have correctly noted, Article 2© of the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide does imply that the Iraqi government can be considered to be pursuing genocidal policies in relation to the Ma’dan. In addition, its use of chemical weapons on Kurdish villagers is both genocidal and a war crime.

However, regarding the specifics of the convention: while condemning genocidal acts, and providing a legal framework in which these acts can be punished, the Convention does not (as far as I can tell) sanction or promote military intervention as a proper response to genocidal policies on the part of States. In other words, signatory States are not compelled to act militarily against others States on the basis of acts of genocide. Thus, technically speaking, the Netherlands cannot be accused of violating international law in this instance. More significantly, this Convention grants to no State the right to use force or threat of force in its relations with other states: that right is reserved by the UN Charter to the UN Security Council alone.

The genocidal atrocities committed by Saddam Hussein are a very good reason for international military intervention in Iraq, but only under the auspices of the UN. This Convention, adopted by the United Nations General Assembly in 1948, is an expression of the general will of the UN. By honoring it, we aren’t ignoring the UN; we’re abiding by its mandates.

Need I mention that the US government has often ignored the Convention when it suited its purposes? Thus, with regard to Cambodia and the Khmer Rouge, the US government officially recognized Pol Pot as the legitimate leader of the country, despite numerous attempts on the part of the UN to ban his regime’s participation in the General Assembly. The US gov’t vehemently opposed intervention in the internal affairs of the Cambodia during Pot’s genocidal massacre, and was among the first to denounce the Vietnamese government when, after numerous border skirmishes, it finally invaded Cambodia (in 1978, I believe).

At the same time, while US arms manufacturers were supplying weapons and ammo to the Indonesian army, which had invaded East Timor and was in the process of attempting to totally obliterate the native population, the US was instrumental in blocking UN action against Indonesia. Then US representative to the UN Daniel Patrick Moynihan wrote in his autobiography of this period:

Naturally, when later reconstructing the beneficent history of the US as unimpeachable defender of the downtrodden, such uncomfortable tidbits of information are ignominiously consigned to the memory hole.

Your mention of the Iraqi regime’s crimes against the Kurdish minority are especially ironic in this situation, given that while these events were occurring, they were supported and condoned by the US government – which tried to foist the blame for the gas attacks on Iran, instead. Indeed, the helicopters used to carry out the attacks were Apache’s purchased from the US on the cheap, under an arms agreement that was condoned by the US government.

I consider myself fairly well read on the subject of US-Iraqi relations, and follow the news closely. I must admit, however, that your link to the Ma’dan is the first I’ve heard of them. Clearly, the US is not concerned with their fate; Bush has not mentioned them as a justification for military action a single time, to my knowledge. So I guess the shocking, unfortunate truth is that both the US and the Netherlands stand accused here. How can the US fail to live up to its commitments, and intervene on behalf of the unfortunate “Marsh Arabs?” How do you think such a justification for military action against Iraq would go down in middle America, pray tell?
(Sorry, mods, about the unintentional crosspost.)

I wrote a lengthy response a few days ago, but a board crash ate it. This one is going to be shorter; I’ll just respond to the heart of your argument.

And the response is – are you nuts?? What if the UN fails or refuses to respond to genocide? Is the world supposed to sit back and say, “sorry you [insert ethic group] are being slaughtered, but the Security Council won’t pass a resolution. Guess we are going to have to let you guys die.”

Your approach gives the five permanent members of the UN and their close allies carte blanche to commit genocide, as they could veto any attempt to authorize force to stop the genocide. Not saying that it is going to happen, but would you be willing to step aside if the Israelis started lining the Palestinians up against the wall, and the U.S. vetoed a resolution authorizing force to end it?

'Course, we don’t need to look to a hypothetical – this has already happened. The Russians refused to allow a resolution authorizing the use of force against Serbia - its close ally - when the Serbs embarked on genocide in Kosovo. NATO had to act “illegally” to stop the slaughter.

Would you rather have allowed Milosevic to “ethnically cleanse” Kosovo? That’s exactly what would have happened had not NATO decided to “ignore” the UN.

Sua