What is the evidence to support the Bible

[quixotic78]

*Originally posted by dreamer *
**Again, he created the angels and they used their free will to choose against him. The only reason I can think of as to “why” he allows them to do what they do on Earth is so that all human beings can be exposed to good and evil and make their choices. **

If angels have free will, then why did God make humanity? Why have two… ummm… species, if you will, of creatures able to choose between good and evil? If you have both humans and angels, do dogs have the free will to choose between good and evil, too? What about earthworms? Poison ivy?

Back when I was a Fundie (don’t laugh), I was taught that angels do NOT have free will; only humans do. I was never given a satisfactory reason as to how Satan would revolt, other than “God uses him as a tool,” part and parcel of the “mysterious ways” dogma.

Where does it say in the Bible that angels have free will?
Quix

[nicky]

Well 'im convinced.

Noah could have built a ship 450 feet long out of reeds, so therefore the Biblical Flood story is literally true.

[tracer]

*Originally posted by dreamer *

Originally posted by glee
I interpret Genesis 6:3 to simply mean that man’s natural lifespan would be about 120 years.

Genesis 7:6 "Noah was 600 years old when the floodwaters came on the earth"

Well, it wouldn’t be the first time the bible contradicted itself…

[Aro]

No bible to hand…but
Was there not some mention of the hyena being deliberately left out of the Ark because it was an “abhorrent evil mixture of cat and dog”? If so, why is it still around?
Or was that another piece of misinformation which randomly made its way into my head?

And also, where did all the water go, after the flood?

[Go_alien]

And where did all the water come from?

[Mangetout]

I’m not trying to defend a literal view of the Biblical flood, however the 120 year thing could easily be talking about people born after that statement was made, enabling Noah to live on to 600 with no contradiction (in this area), although telling people that their children will only live to 120 when you’re about to wipe them all out anyway does raise issues…

Aro:I don’t think there’s anything in the standard Bible about that hyena thing, but maybe there’s something in one of the non-canonical books…

[Gyrate]

*Originally posted by Go alien *
**And where did all the water come from? **

From above and below (Bible reference not at hand at the moment).

The problem with trying to juggle Biblical miracles and the laws of physics is that you can say that God put the water there and took it away afterwards without having to go look for it later. The real question is whether (or why) God would also have removed or altered the evidence that all that water had been there, and then you start questioning God’s motives and it all gets very messy.

I just wanted to say, dreamer, that considering you’re more or less alone on your side of the debate, you’re doing an excellent job of keeping things on a civilized level. Keep up the good work.

[Aro]

ok, link here
Quote:
*Sir Walter Raleigh excluded them from Noah’s ark since he believed that God had only saved thoroughbreds. Hyenas were reconstituted after the flood through the unnatural union of a dog and cat. In fact, the three living species of hyena form a family of their own within the order Carnivora. *

It was your man Raleigh who stopped them going in the Ark. What on earth was he doing there?
I should do a little research before I post random thoughts…

[pldennison]

Back when I was a Fundie (don’t laugh), I was taught that angels do NOT have free will; only humans do.

Yeah, I was taught that, too, and I know that Lib and, I believe, Poly and quite a few other Doper Christians believe that as well. It’s the entire reason that God created humans; the angels sang God’s praises day and night, but it was something they couldn’t not do, since they did not have free will. God wanted to create a creature with free will who would freely choose Him; thus, humans.

[dreamer]

** where did all the water come from?**
Genesis 7:11- “In the six hundredth year of Noah’s life, on the seventeenth day of the second month - on that day all the springs of the great deep burst forth, and the floodgates of the Heaven’s were opened. And rain fell on the earth forty days and forty nights.”

**where did all the water go, after the flood? **

Genesis 8:1-5 “But God remembered Noah and all the wild animals and the livestock that were with him in the ark, and he sent a wind over the earth, and the waters receded. Now the springs of the deep and the floodgates of the heavens had been closed, and the rain had stopped falling from the sky. The water receded steadily from the earth. At the end of the hundred and fifty days the water had gone down. and on the seventeenth day of the seventh month the ark came to rest on the mountains of Ararat. The waters continued to recede until the tenth month, and on the first day of the tenth month the tops of the mountains became visible.”

originally posted by jr8 I just wanted to say, dreamer, that considering you’re more or less alone on your side of the debate, you’re doing an excellent job of keeping things on a civilized level. Keep up the good work.

Thank You jr8. Believe it or not these debates are refreshing my mind with the things of God I don’t always think about on a daily basis and researching them further just proves his existence all the more. To me, that is

[Aro]

*Originally posted by dreamer *

**where did all the water go, after the flood? **
The water receded steadily from the earth. …the waters continued to recede until the tenth month, and on the first day of the tenth month the tops of the mountains became visible."

Receded to where was the point…into the seas? Where were all the seas when the water WAS there? Perhaps it Evaporated?
Just another mysterious movement from God.

But as Jr8 said, perhaps conventional physics is a red herring in this case.

[gobear]

Sorry, Dreamer, but the only person you’re convincing is yourself. Now if you want to say that the Flood was miraculous, and that God made the water appear and then vanish, that’s fine. One can’t very well argue with miracles. But it doesn’t convince anyone who actually needs evidence to back up a hypothesis. There are tons of geological evidence to disprove the existence of a world-wide flood, and absolutely no evidence for a flood outside of Scripture. Now if you can close your eyes to that, then nothing we here say can change your mind.

[zev_steinhardt]

Originally posted by glee
**Noah and all the animals stayed on the ark just over a year (Feb 17 - Feb 27 the next year).

**

Surely you don’t think they used the Julian (or Gregorian calendar). The “second month” and the dates refer to a lunar calendar used by the authors of the Bible. In fact, since the lunar calendar is about 11 shorter than the solar calendar, Noah & Co. were on the ark a full solar year.

As for your questions:

1. Who says He didn’t forsee it.
2. Who says he didn’t give them an opportunity to repent? Admittedly, there is no place in the Bible where it explicitly says that Noah tried to convince humanity to change their ways. Jewish tradition, however, teaches that he did. In addition, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

Consider, it should not take 120 years [more on that dispute a bit later] to build a boat. Maybe Noah took longer than neccessary so as to give the rest of humanity a chance to redeem themselves.

Regarding the “120 years” issue, both interpretations (a countdown to the flood and the length of the human lifespan) are brought down in Jewish tradition. The age of Noah at the time of the flood is not a contradiction tracer. After the flood, you’ll find that the lifespan of people mentioned in the Bible DID start to decrease. Whereas Noah lived to 950, his son Shem lived only to 600. When you get down to Joseph, he only lived 110. In any event, the verse doesn’t even state that this is an absolute maximum.

[quote]
Originally posted by Aro
Was there not some mention of the hyena being deliberately left out of the Ark because it was an “abhorrent evil mixture of cat and dog”? If so, why is it still around?

Hyena? Not in my Bible. Not even in Jewish tradition at all.

Zev Steinhardt

[dreamer]

*Originally posted by gobear *
**Sorry, Dreamer, but the only person you’re convincing is yourself. Now if you want to say that the Flood was miraculous, and that God made the water appear and then vanish, that’s fine. One can’t very well argue with miracles. But it doesn’t convince anyone who actually needs evidence to back up a hypothesis. There are tons of geological evidence to disprove the existence of a world-wide flood, and absolutely no evidence for a flood outside of Scripture. Now if you can close your eyes to that, then nothing we here say can change your mind. **

First of all gobear you are right in saying that nothing you say will change my mind. I’m also not here to convince you of anything. As far as I know I was asked to come here to debate the existence of God knowing full well none of you believe a word I say.

God made the water appear and then vanish, I’m sorry that’s so hard for you to believe. Especially on a rainy day.

[dreamer]

*Originally posted by zev_steinhardt *
** absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.
**

Very nice Zev_steinhardt

[zev_steinhardt]

*Originally posted by dreamer *
**
God made the water appear and then vanish, I’m sorry that’s so hard for you to believe. Especially on a rainy day. **

Come on, dreamer.

You know perfectly well that water doesn’t “vanish” after an ordinary rainy day. Ever hear of the water cycle? If God made the flood waters disappear through some miracle, fine, but don’t try to equate it to the perfectly natural occurence of the water cycle.

Also, thanks for compliment.

Zev Steinhardt

[dreamer]

*Originally posted by zev_steinhardt *
**

Come on, dreamer.

You know perfectly well that water doesn’t “vanish” after an ordinary rainy day. Ever hear of the water cycle? If God made the flood waters disappear through some miracle, fine, but don’t try to equate it to the perfectly natural occurence of the water cycle.

Also, thanks for compliment.

Zev Steinhardt **

:smack: <----- that would be me then (as usual)

[glee]

(Was Jesus Christ involved with the ark?)

*Originally posted by dreamer *
No. I have no idea where they came up with that idea. I will admit I did not read that page thoroughly enough and would not have linked it if I did :o. I apologize for that and will not do that again.

You don’t need to apologise.
Providing links is useful to the debate. Then we can all analyse them.

So is that particular link discredited?
(I note that 1. his dimensions of the ark didn’t agree with the Bible anyway and 2. Genesis 7:16 gave the author that Jesus idea.)

*Originally posted by dreamer *
I believe it’s possible that the Ark was built exactly as God told Noah to build it. There are no scriptures stating if anyone helped him build it or how long it took exactly, or how the animals got into the boat.

Well we know you believe the Bible - that’s not the point of this thread.

Why do you believe the ark is possible?
www.talkorigins provides a list of scientific objections, and you need to explain them.

As for the number of builders, I note that only 8 people got on the ark. It seems nasty to suggest that anyone else who helped build it wasn’t allowed to get on it, and was left to die.
Indeed, given that God intended to execute everyone else, why would they help anyway?

Next, concerning the animals entering the boat, talkorigins points out:

How was the Ark loaded? Getting all the animals aboard the Ark presents logistical problems which, while not impossible, are highly impractical. Noah had only seven days to load the Ark ( Gen. 7:4-10). If only 15764 animals were aboard the Ark (see section 3), one animal must have been loaded every 38 seconds, without letup. Since there were likely more animals to load, the time pressures would have been even worse.

*Originally posted by dreamer *
I’m curious, if you think it may be a parable, then what would it mean to you? (if you were a believer)

Well, as I said, I have a scientific approach (and if God exists, He made me that way).
So I reject the idea that the Bible is literal, because the ark was not humanly possible. (You are welcome to persuade me otherwise!)

But I understand parables as for example used by Jesus (prodigal son, wise virgins etc).
OK, if the ark is a parable, what would it mean to me?
I’m a bit stuck.
It seems to say that 1. you must trust God, whatever He asks you to do and 2. those who reject God’s teachings will be destroyed. (This latter theme recurs throughout the Old Testament and conflicts, in my opinion, with the gentle nature of Jesus.)

Incidentally, even if I’m not a believer, I can still recognise the wisdom of much of Jesus’ teachings.

[glee]

*Originally posted by dreamer *
where did all the water come from?

Genesis 7:11- “In the six hundredth year of Noah’s life, on the seventeenth day of the second month - on that day all the springs of the great deep burst forth, and the floodgates of the Heaven’s were opened. And rain fell on the earth forty days and forty nights.”

**where did all the water go, after the flood? **

Genesis 8:1-5 “But God remembered Noah and all the wild animals and the livestock that were with him in the ark, and he sent a wind over the earth, and the waters receded. Now the springs of the deep and the floodgates of the heavens had been closed, and the rain had stopped falling from the sky. The water receded steadily from the earth. At the end of the hundred and fifty days the water had gone down. and on the seventeenth day of the seventh month the ark came to rest on the mountains of Ararat. The waters continued to recede until the tenth month, and on the first day of the tenth month the tops of the mountains became visible.”

Again there are many scientific objections (as usual, listed at talkorigins) to the Flood appearing and disappearing. You need to tackle them.

You can state that God ‘materialised’ the water, then ‘dematerialised’ it.
But then He left no evidence, and that is what this thread is about.

I would personally like your view on Genesis 7: 19-20:
‘And the waters prevailed exceedingly upon the earth; and the whole high hills, that were under the whole heaven, were covered.
Fifteen cubits upwards did the waters prevail; and the mountains were covered.’

As I read this, it says that the Flood covered the Earth, and the mountains were covered to a depth of over 20 feet.

This is an astounding amount of water. Some mountains are over 5 miles high. Do you agree the Bible is saying there was enough water to cover this entire planet to a depth of 5 miles?!

[rjung]

The problem with debates like these is that one side is using facts and logic and reasoning(*) to support their position, and the other side is citing quotes out of a book that’s not necessarily based on facts and logic and reasoning. It’s like two people who don’t speak the same language trying to debate the artistic merits of “Porky’s”.

(* = And if there is an omniscient God, these are not necessarily good tools to use, since He ostensibly could change the laws of physics at will)