What is the explanation for shots 2 through 7?

As I understand it, In Kenosha, the cop fired at and hit Blake 7 times. As I view the video, the cop was touching Blake with one hand - his gun must have been touching Blake or within inches of his back.

While I do not think even the first shot was justified, even if I were to grant the first shot as justified, what possible argument could justify the subsequent 6 shots? Is there some line of police training that says something to the effect of, “Don’t assume your first shot had the intended effect. Fire several more times to make sure”?

As I understand it, the government position is that a knife was present - either in Blake’s hand or car. Wouldn’t a single shot to the back w/ a 9mm (which I presume was used) at pointblank range be damned certain to at least slow down even the most determined knife-wielder - to buy enough time for the cops to stop back and make sure they were accurately assessing the situation? Not to mention w/ 3 kids in the immediate vicinity (back seat)?

While shot 1 was horrible, in my mind, it is shots 2-7 that undeniably point to at least criminal negligence by the cop and department. I felt similarly in the Laquan McDonald shooting here in Chicago.

Apologies if this is the incorrect forum. I thought of appending this to the existing threads, but was hoping for a somewhat tailored discussion of this aspect.

One shot unless it’s to the head is almost never going to take somehow down, governments have been doing this research for more than a century at this point. There have been several famous examples of people who have taken dozens of gun shots of all calibers and still advanced towards the shooters.

I forgot what it was for but I remember reading some training manual that basically said “Shoot until the target goes down and if it doesn’t keep shooting”.

Basic defensive shooting training is to keep shooting until the threat is neutralized i.e. the assailant goes down/stops moving. That being said, there’s always the panicked “shoot until there’s no more noise” reaction. It could also be the officer mistook Blake’s reaction to the gunshots as a continued struggle.

At the same time, some cops only use one shot to put a person down.

After that person chases them twice around their cruiser with a knife.

Boy, I dunno. 1 shot to the back of a guy who does not have a gun. W/ 3 cops w/in reach.

Sure doesn’t seem anywhere NEAR some roided up beast who can’t be stopped charging a cop.

How many shots missed?

Did none of those cops have a tazer? They couldn’t have taken him down that way as he was walking slowly towards his vehicle?

I don’t know if this is still what they are saying, but initially I read 7 shots, 4 of which hit Blake. If you’ve seen the reverse angle video, you can see there weren’t just his kids in the car – there’s a baby crawling nearby on the lawn and another kid and some other adults nearby. It’s lucky no one else was hit, I think.

It’s been reported that an officer had unsuccessfully deployed his taser in the earlier scuffle. I don’t know if that means they tasted him but it didn’t stop him, or if, e.g., the probes didn’t stick so he didn’t actually get tased.

Actually, the reports I read said he had been tased (or attempted) TWICE. Makes you wonder what their equipment was and how was it used.

The vid is not crystal clear, and I saw no sign of tasing - or even really a scuffle - tho several people were talking in excited voices. Blake did not appear not overly large. He was wearing a sleeveless undershirt - so it wasn’t as tho they were trying to tase him through a jacket … The overwhelming impression I got was that he was simply disregarding the cops, and walking away from them around the front of his car - with 1 cop following closely, to the point that he leaned into the open driver’s side door.

I just don’t understand the “rules of engagement” that have the cop being in such close proximity to him that he felt he needed to shoot w/o ascertaining more clearly. As opposed to letting him go, following him, etc.

Let me say from the start that I am not saying what this cop did was justifiable. Nor, am I saying it wasn’t. Like most controversial police shootings, it isn’t as cut and dry as many believe. That’s what makes it controversial.The sad truth is that most people get their understanding of police shootings from TV and movies. One shot stops, blood exploding everywhere, bodies flying backwards after being hit, cowboys shooting the gun out of the hand of the villain, etc.The reality is that there is often no blood immediately visible (especially with handguns), people who are hit by gunfire may not react at all even after multiple hits that ultimately prove fatal and hitting a moving target of any size can be difficult. Especially when the shooter is in fear for his life or that of another.

When I trained in the early 80s there was no instruction given on how many shots to fire in combat. The shooting was all marksmanship and zero combat shooting that I recall. Some years later, “double tap” became the mantra. The theory was that too many officers were firing a single shot, either missing or not stopping the suspect and then being shot by the bad guy. Double-tap was “Shoot twice and evaluate for effectiveness”. Over time, this evolved into “Shoot until the threat is stopped”. I have never heard anyone ever training “Shoot to kill” but this seems to be a commonly held belief in the general public.

When shooting to stop a perceived threat, an officer will likely pull the trigger as fast as he can until he believes that he is no longer in danger. With a little training and a semi-automatic handgun, almost anyone can get off three or four shots in a second. Given that there is a lag time between perception and action of up to a second (and sometimes more), it is not unexpected that an officer will fire several rounds after the suspect has gone down or ceased to be a threat. Some may hit the suspect in the back or top of the head. Multiple that effect by two or three officers and suddenly it appears that a dozen or more unnecessary shots were fired into a suspect who was already down. Technically, this might be true, but physiology and human behavior almost guarantee it. This is one reason why including the word “necessary” in policies, while sounding good, is fraught with problems. If it turns out that a gun pointed by suspect wasn’t loaded, it wasn’t really “necessary” to shoot him, was it? Or, if the officer fires three more shots while he is processing what he is seeing (suspect going down) and then acting upon it (stopping shooting), were those shots really “necessary”. Who decides? Social media? CNN? Fox News?

As far as “rules of engagement” - they are set by the U.S. Supreme Court. An officer may use reasonable force to accomplish his goals. The circumstances as perceived by the officer, not social media or talking heads, are of paramount importance.

From the case Graham vs Connor - © The Fourth Amendment “reasonableness” inquiry is whether the officers’ actions are “objectively reasonable” in light of the facts and circumstances confronting them, without regard to their underlying intent or motivation. The “reasonableness” of a particular use of force must be judged from the perspective of a reasonable officer on the scene, and its calculus must embody an allowance for the fact that police officers are often forced to make split-second decisions about the amount of force necessary in a particular situation. Pp. [490 U. S. 396]"
The majority opinion also specifically warns against judging with the benefit of 20/20 hindsight.

Other cases have reiterated that the question is “Was, at the moment the force was used, it reasonably necessary?”. Consistent with Graham, courts do not want get in to second-guessing the tactics employed as Dinsdale does in his post. For every person who says the cops should have backed off or waited there will be another who says they should have just wrestled him down (which, apparently, they had already tried to do).

Police use of force is not a simple topic to understand and I believe that few people want to delve into . the complexities. Fewer still have ever been in a life and death situation and have a difficult time understanding how the human animal behaves when their actions may determine who lives and who may not. Snap judgments based on uninformed blather from various “news” sources seems to be the rule and not the exception. I hear it from my own pro-police friends.

Fortunately, a jury in a courtroom is, basically, forced into a better understanding of what took place in a given incident. That is why, in cases like that of Terrence Crutcher, juries acquit when the public has already convicted. Its not because some sort of fix is in. Its because its about the only place where the law and the reality of deadly force encounters are explained to people who are obliged to listen.

FWIW, based on what has been released so far, I predict an acquittal in the Rayshard Brooks case. It appears to me to be a justified shooting.

I’ll start off with a disclaimer, too. Clearly you (MikeF) and I are on very different sides of this issue and we will not agree, but I thank you for your post. I think it’s very well written and gives me an insight into the thinking on the LE side.
Now to take the gloves off…

Even the vaunted institution of the Supreme Court makes mistakes, and Graham is a doozy! It should (and will be, imo) overturned. But, you’re right in saying that because of that case courts have been hesitant to second guess the officer on the scene.
But that doesn’t make the case you think it does. If some scenarios are so charged with danger that an officer has little or no time to do anything but react. Then I say that those situations are too dangerous to send anyone into. Officers should not be there. They shouldn’t have to decide between their life and the suspect’s. If we have all these hundreds (and there are literally hundreds) of examples where the calm arena of 20/20 hindsight sheds doubt on the actions of those in the moment. Then clearly they shouldn’t be there.

Thanks for the lengthy response, MikeF. But you really didn’t discuss THIS case.

What you call “second guessing”, I thought was an attempt to understand.

Yeah, but what kind of person is going to say “Shoot him repeatedly, even tho you don’t see a gun and he is walking away from you”?

I’ve never been a cop, but I have studied and taught various martial arts, in which threat assessment was a big part. And I’m no expert marksman and have never shot a person/animal, but I have fired several hand and long guns at various targets.

I’m not expecting Annie Oakley trick shooting, and there were not 2-3 cops shooting. There was 1 cop, who had on hand on the guy’s shirt, and his gun inches from his back. He didn’t see a gun, because there was none. Possibly, he saw a knife. There were multiple bystanders, including 3 kids in the car.

So there we are. The cop KNOWS his first shot is going to be center mass at EXTREMELY close range. Please explain to this ignorant civilian how 6 more shots could be considered objectively reasonable? If there is any alternative to, “This cop panicked and REALLY fucked up,” I’d love to hear it.

It is true that the Supreme Court sets the ultimate outer bounds of what an officer can do in terms of use of force, but it is not the case universally that those are the rules that limit the lawful use of force by an officer. Those rules set the limit at which a person’s civil rights are violated. But, states can have their own constitutional boundaries, write laws that set limits inside of those bounds, and police forces can have use of force policies that are within those bounds. Many officers in the US work under laws and policies that are more restrictive than the US constitutional limits. And more can, whenever the political will is great enough to do any of those limit-setting acts. There are campaigns going on now to do this in more places, such as 8 can’t wait.

7 shots doesn’t kill, but 1 shot absolutely will stop a threat? I don’t think so.

You don’t shoot to “slow down.” No cop is trained to do that, and they never will be.

Why not?

Guy is coming at you with a knife, but not yet within range. Why not take 1 shot to center mass and assess the effect, instead of 5-6-7 shots? Or - if the guy is facing away from you, leaning into a car containing several children…

Take the 1 shot, and the guy keeps coming at you - fine, unload the clip. But I don’t see that there is a clear reason why cops oughtn’t take the time to see whether they hit what they were aiming at - ESPECIALLY if no shots are coming AT the cop.

Look, just say you don’t think he should have shot the guy. A gun is not a less-lethal weapon. You don’t shoot to maim, or “slow down” or whatever. That’s what tazers and pepper spray are for. You shoot to stop the threat.

If you don’t believe he was a threat, and thus shouldn’t have been shot, fine.

But no cop is going to trained to be a less lethal shooter. That will never happen.

Except that it does, and did.

After being chased around her cruiser twice, and then halfway across the parking lot, she fired one shot.

The guy went down, then she went to render aid.

It might not be a good idea, and such training might never again happen, (and there were more shootings by police back then) but cops used to be, if not so trained, at least so ordered.

I was listening to a podcast in the last couple of weeks, and I don’t remember the exact one – I’ll have to go back through to try to find it – but they played a clip of a police chief talking about the rioting after MLK Jr. was assassinated, recorded back then. This police chief was explaining that they would shoot to kill (rioters who were fighting?) and “shoot to maim” I think it was looters. I will try to find it since this is hazy, but there were definitely two categories of law breakers, and two kinds of shots they intended to take.

Was that the same cop and suspect? If you want to talk about different incidents with different outcomes we can do that all day. A single shot can do many different things depending on the circumstances.

If you don’t like cops being able to use lethal force, that’s fine. That’s going to require disarming them of firearms, but hey, other countries do it. But shooting to wound is not a good idea.