What is the happy medium between social benefits and economic growth?

Well, when I first came to Europe, I loved what I saw as a popular ideology that seemed to say that people work so that they can live a comfortable life. They don’t work to be filthy rich, etc. I liked the long lunches here in France, the shorter work weeks, and the longer paid vacations (I still do), but I find myself questioning a lot of it, seeing what’s happening right now in France.

The longer I live in France, it seems that nothing works well. There is little incentive to do a good job, because there’s little risk in not doing a good job. Competition between companies is limited, so the benefits don’t get to the customer (like paying for technical support calls by the minute, even when you’re on hold waiting for an operator).

Moreover, there are the strikes. France came to a stand-still on Tuesday. There are still kids blocking major roadways and traintracks. So, needless to say, certain people aren’t making money (or if they’re getting paid, they’re not doing anything because they’re stuck in traffic).

On the other hand, I think a lot of people in the US work themselves to death. Health care is incredibly expensive, too. Things like that. So, where is the medium.

What about the Scandanavian countries? Is their mix working or not. I’ve always thought so, but I’ve been shown recently that that may be a myth.

Ireland?

There is (at least) one other dimension to this which makes it a much more complicated issue, since there are many different ways to achieve the same social goal. For instance, you can have a Social Security system like the US, or you can take a more market-oriented approach and allow (require, actually) retirement savings accounts. The latter allows more individual participation and subjects the program more to market forces. As soemone who is libertarian leaning, I’m much willing to support programs that do tap into the market rather than setting up a strict tax-and benefit- plan. Some things, like national defense, are better managed thru taxes, but I think we have too much of tendancy to think that is the only way that government can work.

Another example is healthcare. I don’t see why we can’t consider a program much like what many states have for car insurance. Every one is required to maintain a certain minimum level of insurance, but you get to shop around and your insurance isn’t tied to your employer. You don’t have to start from scratch on your car insurance everytime you change jobs. Now, there are always going to be the truly poor that need assistance, and that can be funded from general taxes, but since the vast majority of Americans can afford health insurance, I don’t see why should go overboard and “nationalize” the entire industry.

In short, it’s not a simple trade off between benefits and economics. If someone just wants to raise taxes to provide some social benefit to the country as a whole, I have to question whether that’s the best way to do things.

While I like long vacations, I don’t think they should be federally (or is the term ‘nationally’ with France?) mandated. I’ll go as far as using tax incentives to give people vacation. I’m not sure how that works, but ime, using tax incentives rather than legislation seems to be a happy medium. Workers can quickly decide which company is being nice and which one isn’t, on its face.

I don’t know about this. I’m not doubting your personal experience, I haven’t been there since 2002. However, I do know that of my company’s geographical affiliates, France is among the worst. It just seemed like our workers really did want to work hard and there was no automatic quitting time when 8 hours rolled around.

I’m still not sure what to make of the US national healthcare situation. Everyone I know has some form of and no one complains. I’ve personally been blessed with having great healthcare coverage from the companies that I have worked for at surprisingly cheap rates (aahhh the benefits of working for a large multi-national corporation), and I don’t even use it. Unless there is a massive error in the reporting numbers, there is definitely a problem. Perhaps people in America use it for everything, I don’t know. That’s what I’m first expecting. In law school, we reviewed a study that showed that litigation wasn’t the problem. I have a feeling that the money is tied up in administration. Anyway, that’s what I think and I have no official comment.

From what I’ve been reading, it’s not working, particularly if Norway is a prime example. I personally believe that socialism works on a much better scale for smaller countries. It also helps if you have a natural resource that is in high demand from a limited supply. Without that key ingredient, at best I see a country like France before free-market reform; at worst, see Venezuela in 2003 (reeling from the effects of a strike in oil production).

Ireland is more free market capitalism closer to the US. The reason they look so awesome is because they speak English, have great educational resources and an educated populace, are part of a stable economic network, good infrastructure, and had massive room for improvement in their economy as it transitioned from agriculture to industry. Mostly, though, it’s because of the lower tax rate (at least that’s what my finance team noted for this quarter). It looks like there is still room to grow. My company’s Ireland geographic affiliate was the best performer in Europe and the second best overall (the US was the overall leader for those curious).

To answer the OP: to strike a good balance between social benefits and economic growth, I believe the answer depends on certain key factors: natural resources offered, education of the populace, culture and language, and possibly comparative advantage in the economy. The benefits which require pursuit depends on what the society values. I haven’t really given this much thought, because I’m of the opinion that the government should stay out of the economy as much as possible. I will repeat what I learned in school in my econ courses, and seems to be repeated largely in this (somewhat conservative) article: less taxation, raise GDP growth, then you have money to fund your societal benefits.

All developed countries (well, not so much in Eastern Europe, if they count) are starting to feel the demographic pinch of aging populations and the consequent drag on the economy. That’s something everybody’s going to have to figure out how to cope with; there isn’t a magic market solution for it, or a magic governmental solution for that matter.

Yes, there is such a thing as too much social benefits (particularly when it comes to excessive job security, which undermines productivity and workers’ motivation), and some countries like France may still be on the over-generous side of that line. But as others have pointed out, it’s not just a question of what benefits/growth combination you want, but how you get there. Different strategies have different costs and advantages.

Market solutions aren’t a panacea, either. Sometimes replacing government regulation with market incentives does make a system more efficient, but sometimes it doesn’t.

For example, the administrative costs of the largely-privatized American healthcare system are (as mazinger noted) huge, much larger than in the more bureaucratically-streamlined single-payer systems of other countries. Similarly, although John’s proposed individually-managed retirement savings accounts would have some advantages over Social Security benefits, their overhead costs would be higher because of all that individual management. One advantage that a large universal-participation government-run system does generally provide is economies of scale.

Why is that not true for all industries? Why wouldn’t a single payer system for housing or automobiles give us economies of scale and lower overhead? I mean, think of all those car lots that could be consolidated, and all that messy marketing that could be eliminated. Do we really need 60 types of light trucks when 5 basic models would do? And which Bush crony would you recommend to run the whole system? I heard Brownie is looking for a job… :slight_smile:

Insufficient variety of product, me lad. When it comes to consumer goods, even large consumer goods like automobiles and houses, consumers want a wide range of product choice to serve a wide range of individual preferences. It’s much more efficient to turn market competition loose on the problem of supply and let market incentives drive producers to fill all (or most) of the various desired niches, even if they duplicate some effort in the process.

But according to the best market research information, consumers in general do not give what is technically known as “a rat’s ass” about having a wide range of product choice in the style and structure of insurance forms. The ungrateful public simply does not appreciate the variety of consumer options that insurance administrators have blessed them with. :wink: Therefore, all the effort that goes into producing different and incompatible insurance forms, and shuffling them about from one insurance provider to another in cases of competing or conflicting claims and so forth, is just so much wasted overhead.

Similarly, sad fact though it is from a libertarian perspective (or from any perspective, really; even we non-libertarians like to think of individual citizens as independent-spirited responsible champions of personal financial autonomy), studies simply do not bear out the supposition that most people really desire, or make good use of, a whole lot of independent control over their retirement investments. Even smart people who are not financial experts make stupid financial choices, and many simply don’t take the time or effort to make individual choices at all. When it comes to something like universally mandated reliable retirement savings plans, providing oodles of individual consumer choice again turns out to be just so much wasted overhead.

I’d like to see that market research, but even then I’m not sure I’d want to base public poilcy on something as tenuous as market research. People often say they don’t want something until they are unable to get it.

Which is why, if it’s a government program, you limit the number of choices to investments rated low risk. You don’t let Joe Schmoe put all his retirement money in Web-Van. But, you do give people a choice, and free up those of us who are smarter than government bureacrats (and there are lots of us) to do better than the bureacrats can. You also might consider looser investment options for younger people, and tighter controls on what you can do as you approach middle age. There are lots of creative ways to harness market forces to our advantage wiithout leaving large segments of the ignorant masses out in the street.

How much of the population think they’re “smarter” than the government? How many actually are? How do you propose to sort them out?

People are not very smart about retirement. Thaler’s study showed that there was a significant increase in enrollment in matched 401Ks when they were made the default on the enrollment form. There is no investment more of a no-brainer than enrolling in a 401K.

Course “smarter” than the government is a red herring. They system is set up for a set rate of return, no brains being needed. Since none of us is prevented from investing in retirement beyond Social Security, I fail to see the need for any change in the system - except for minor tweaking of caps etc. I do see one reason - the absolute fury of libertarians at a government system which works and is popular.

As for insurance - do you have figures as to how many who can afford health insurance don’t get it? it is very different from auto insurance, which mostly protects other people from us, not us from ourselves as much.

Most people are like you. Most people just want to work for a comfortable life. However, when the government confiscates 40% of your income, you have to work a lot harder to get the quality of life you desire. If the government were to, oh, I don’t know, stop taxing people so much, it would naturally decrease the workweek.
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Yup. Monopolies are bad. And you know what? They are all caused by government interference in the market.

The happy medium is zero taxation. That’s the medium. Stop redistributing income, stop spending money on bombs, tanks, bridges to nowhere and all the other broken windows.

Oh, it’s a total myth. link

Well, they are better off than the Scandinavian countries (as noted in the link), but they would be better off still if they found ways to reduce taxes and government spending further.

Comparing healthcare or pensions with cars and light trucks doesn’t make sense. You certainly don’t have 60 types of medical treatments to choose from, nor do you buy a new artificial hip because it strikes your fancy and you like the color. You can let people go without a car, but our societies certainly don’t accept to let elderly people live (or rather die) without any kind of income.

There’s only one “product” offered : the best medical care available in the case of healthcare, money in the case of pensions. And it’s (currently at least and fortunately) a given in our societies that it must be provided to everybody, for free if necessary.
If cars had to be provided to everybody and all cars were essentially identical, it would definitely makes a lot of sense to have a single payer system for cars.

Oh come on dude, that part was a joke. (I thought the smiley was a tipoff.) The real “public policy” issue here is that a single-payer national system does a far better job of providing universal healthcare coverage, with far lower administrative overhead costs, than our current patchwork of for-profit insurers. Do you want cites for that? I got 'em.

(And let’s be careful here not to confuse a single-payer healthcare system with a single-provider or, Og forbid, a single-product one. Nobody’s suggesting that healthcare consumers should be deprived of consumer choice in the areas where they really want it, such as selecting a doctor or deciding which elective operation(s) to have. But consumers in general don’t give a flying fuck about what logo is on the top of the insurance claim form or what address to send it to. And it’s ridiculous to insist that we ought to continue spending buckets of money on unnecessary overhead costs just to keep providing a wide variety of product choice in those areas.)

I yield to nobody in my admiration for the unparalleled efficiency of competitive, for-profit markets in providing an abundance of consumer choices at optimal prices for many kinds of important goods. But I see no point in spending millions or billions of dollars unnecessarily on a market system for goods where consumers don’t actually want lots of consumer choice, just because some starry-eyed idealist libertarians insist that consumers always ought to want choice, or might want it if it weren’t there.

As Voyager pointed out, there are a lot of people who fancy themselves smarter than government bureaucrats who actually turn out to make piss-poor financial choices. Again, this is a case where idealistic anti-government libertarian biases need to give way to pragmatic reality. If what we really need from a basic, universal pension system is reliable, predictable returns, there’s no point in lavishing money on extra overhead costs to provide lots of individual choice in investment options.

Again as Voyager noted, it’s not like a national pension system is the only opportunity you have for saving money for retirement. I’m all in favor of individual retirement savings in addition to a national system, and I support tax incentives to make such plans more attractive. You and your “superior intelligence” can play the market all day to maximize your individual retirement savings, as far as I’m concerned. But that doesn’t mean it’s economically smart to treat the basic, universal national pension system in the same way.

Again, this inspiring-sounding idea needs to pass the test of economic pragmatism. If we did replace our current pay-as-you-go tax-and-benefit social security system with a universal, government-run system of individual retirement accounts with a very limited menu of low-risk investment options, would it actually save money? Even discounting the huge transition costs, would increased returns actually outweigh the increased overhead costs of individual management? I’ve seen absolutely zero evidence so far that they would.

And if they don’t, then the idea fails the economic-pragmatism test. When it comes to basic social benefits where the crucial needs are universality and reliability, I say we should focus on satisfying those crucial needs in the cheapest possible way. Beautiful libertarian ideals about economic freedom and the theoretical advantages of markets can go blow. Show me the money.

There’s nothing libertarian about the proposal I made, unless you consider Sweden to be a libertarian country. But frankly, dismissing a partial privatization of a retirement program as anti-government libertarianism is simply a crude ad hominem.

The way I see it, social benefits and economic growth are intrinsically linked.
First of all, we should break “social benefits” up. It’s a large concept and clunky to work with. With each facet of “social benefits”, we should weigh the pros and cons and what it would or wouldn’t do to economic growth.

It seems the libertarian, liberal, conservative, and even moderates are arguing over what are even construed as a social benefit.

Pointing to an entire country as an example doesn’t seem to want to help us out, seeing as how we haven’t lived in every country.
World War I in America helped the government to enact many social benefits in order to spurn economic growth.

Am I wrong in supposing such things?

Hmmm…I remember from school that governments were upwards of 50% of GDP contributors. A great recipe for hyper-inflation (why don’t they print more money while they’re at it :)) When war ends, there is always a rise in GDP. In the US, I remember most of the reforms were taxes to raise money for the war effort. Do you have any specific examples?

Pretty feeble, John ol’ buddy. After all, you were the one who originally related your suggested proposal to your libertarian “leanings”:

And you were the one making the anti-government-sounding crack about how you and so many other people are “smarter than government bureaucrats”. If you don’t like wearing the “anti-government” label, don’t pin it on yourself.

Furthermore, I didn’t “dismiss” the idea of partial privatization of a national pension program. I just pointed out that we’ve seen no evidence that it would actually save money over the current system, and insisted that that was the pragmatic test that any such idea would need to pass. There’s nothing “crude”, much less “ad hominem”, about that.

From WWI, the War Industries Board.
From WWII, the (the name escapes me at the moment) but the bill that paid people to go to college.

I suppose you can throw the GI Bill into this for a little bit, when it comes to healthcare, even though it’s for vets.