These two clauses are contradictory.
One way of looking at the concept of “forgiveness” is that the act of holding a grudge against somebody, or wishing harm upon them for what they’ve done, harms yourself as well. The act of forgiveness thus protects yourself.
If you hold no grudges or ill will, then it seems to me that you HAVE forgiven the people in question, whether you want to admit it or not.
I disagree with the second, third and fifth arguments you have made in support of this suggestion.
I loved that game, but I’ll agree Katrina was annoying.
Thanks for that, very funny.
I think the most overrated thing that I’ve ever heard presented as a virtue is “god-fearingness”, for lack of a better word. Why is fearing God, specifically, considered to be a virtue, as opposed to any other reaction to God?
The biblical term is “the fear of the Lord” (meaning a reverential and worshipful attitude, not how “fear” is used in modern English).
“The fear of the Lord is to hate evil: pride, and arrogancy, and the evil way, and the froward mouth, do I hate.” (Proverbs 8:13)
“The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom: and the knowledge of the holy is understanding.” (Proverbs 9:10)
“But the mercy of the Lord is from everlasting to everlasting upon them that fear him, and his righteousness unto children’s children; to such as keep his covenant, and to those that remember his commandments to do them.” (Psalm 103:17, 18)
It relates to the strange question I have heard devout Christians ask about atheists - without fear of God’s judgment, what is to stop atheists from rape murder and pillage?
I can’t speak for all atheists, but I don’t do those horrific things because I believe they are wrong. And what I find far more frightening is the implication that if these devout believers lost their faith and thus lost their fear of God’s punishment, rape murder and pillage would immediately ensue.
Agree 100% w @Riemann just above. That has always been the worst aspect of what I saw as religious belief.
What @Bootb has posted just above him puts a very different gloss on it.
Is it possible that the modern coercive social control Xian churches have completely misunderstood what the word “fear” meant back in the day and have built their power structure on that false foundation, and have carefully groomed their followers into that same mistaken understanding?
That’s a theory I just made up, but I’ve heard even less flattering talk about organized Xian religion before.
I was brought up in the U.K., but in a Pentecostal Christian sect that shared many of the worst features of American fundamentalism. I can attest that as a child who too young to articulate why, but who nevertheless on a gut level did not feel that I what I was being taught “rang true”, I was absolutely in constant fear that I might be going to hell because I didn’t have the certain faith that everyone around me seemed to share. And instilling that fear was the M.O. of my church. I think it’s a significant step up from “Catholic guilt”.
“There are only three things in the end that endure, faith, hope, and love”.
As for loyalty (including patriotism), that’s one of the things that’s necessary to make society function. The problem is that, like every organism, we only have a limited number of entities that we’re able to form a strong enough bond to care about (called the Dunbar Number). Humans’ Dunbar number is much higher than for most animals, but it’s still only around 150 or so, too small for any social unit larger than a very small tribe. So the workaround we (and some other social animals like dogs) have developed is to use some of those 150 slots for groups, instead of individuals. Forming a bond with a group is what loyalty is, just like forming a bond with an individual is what friendship is.
I feel somewhat the same way, but would add that I don’t do these horrific things because they horrify me – to do any of them would in that moment be my own nightmare! It’s much more visceral than an analysis of right and wrong. And what I find far more frightening is that devout believers, in saying this, seem to be saying they are not horrified. How in the world do they get all the way to their religion in the flow chart of rape murder and pillage, before they hit “no”?
It’s a bit like there being prison sentences for child molesters. It’s hard to imagine there being something worse than finding oneself in the act of molesting a child. I get why there’s a punishment for stealing money, because I like money, but the idea of counterincentivizing molestation is just kind of bizarre.
Yes, thanks for that. You don’t need to start worrying that I’m a closet psychopath too - I expressed myself poorly. It’s not based on some reasoned ethical analysis that such things are wrong.
Well I, for one, being of the unreligious persuasion, am inspired by this thread to rush out impulsively right now and commit some heinous acts of gluttony and sloth.
The seven deadly virtues, those ghastly little traps
Oh no, my liege, they were not meant for me
Those seven deadly virtues were made for other chaps
Who love a life of failure and ennui
Take courage; now there’s a sport
An invitation to the state of rigor mort
And purity, a noble yen
And very restful every now and then
I find humility means to be hurt
It’s not the earth the meek inherit, it’s the dirt
Honesty is fatal, it should be taboo
Diligence, a fate I would hate
If charity means giving, I give it to you
And fidelity is only for your mate
You’ll never find a virtue unstatusing my quo
Or making my Beelzebubble burst
Let others take the high road, I will take the low
I cannot wait to rush in where angels fear to go
With all those seven deadly virtues
Free and happy little me has not been cursed
–Fredrick Lowe , Camelot
Definitely (mindless) loyalty.
Example: I have broken up with at least two of my close friends due to their marital infidelity. Now, I’m not a perfect person, but I have very strong feelings about cheating on a spouse. Why should I trust a friend, co-worker, or anyone who has stood up in public swearing to be faithful to a spouse and then betrays that same person? I have caught a lot of flak for putting these people aside. You know, “But he’s your friend!! And he didn’t cheat on YOU! It’s a personal issue.” Nope…sorry.
Loyalty is a two-way street. If someone shows me they can’t be trusted by the person who should be able to trust them the most, they don’t deserve my unquestioning loyalty.
Your comments about mindless loyalty toward a friend sound very similar to how I feel about mindless faith in a belief system. Stubborn persistence despite contradictory evidence.
Stubbornness, or the ‘keep at it’ approach, regardless of how many times you fail.
Sometimes, that relationship, job, college, city or whatever is actually sending you a message that whatever you’re doing isn’t working and slamming your head against a brick wall stops hurting once you stop it.
This thread is reminding me about a virtue taken to extremes:
“Those who are ‘brutally honest’ usually seem to enjoy the brutality more than the honesty.”
If you rush out to commit sloth, it defeats the whole purpose.
Faith: blind acceptance of ideas, in the absence of evidence. Not merely overrated, but the “virtue” responsible for so many other wrongdoings. There are so many evils that can only be accepted by faith, evils that would be demolished by the use of reason.