The only people I know who flunked out of college did literally nothing (not attending classes, not doing any work) or had personal problems. Flunking out is a big deal, but it’s not all that easy to do.
Further, the people I know who flunked out for doing no work had college bought and paid for by their folks. They obviously were not college material and didn’t really care about attending. If there parents were not paying it is doubtful they would have taken out loans to attend.
Except when it is.
Richie Incognito, (if that is your real name ;)), a student loan is income when you need it for living expenses. It’s ‘‘money in’’ when you draft a budget. That’s the purpose of the loan, you know. In the real world, student loans are a pretty standard way of paying for rent and food. In fact, when you sign the contract, the loan specifies which living expenses may be paid with the loan. My budget is based on these loans, and must be counted as part of my monthly income in order to prevent eviction and/or starving to death. Scholarships are also a source of income commonly used to pay for basic living expenses, and if you flunk out of school, you lose your source of income. Yes, I get that it’s debt that must be repaid, but it’s virtually imperative to view it also as income given the specific context in which it must be used.
Hello Again, I can accept that most college students were/are not like me. Often they are inexperienced at work and still receiving financial support at home. However, I still hold that the view of the ‘‘typical college student’’ is little more than a caricature. While there were some kids totally out of touch with adult reality, a lot of them were pretty much on their own, and many of those receiving support were still decent, responsible human beings.
Graduate students are even less deserving of this caricature. The vast majority of my fellow students worked between 2-10 years in the field before pursuing graduate study, including myself. Many of them work part-time in addition to the required internship, some of them work full-time, and many of them have additional responsibilities such as caring for ailing family members and children. Almost every single one of us are adults, with feet firmly planted in The Real World of adult responsibility. There are a handful of naive sheltered kids, but they take the work seriously and meet what responsibilities they do have.
To imply that there is something special about the 9-5 grind that makes you automatically more responsible than a student is absurd. To go one further and imply that professors are ‘‘out of touch’’ is even stupider, since they are salaried and pretty obviously employed in every commonly accepted sense of the word. And it is all rather shocking coming from members of the Dope, a board which purports to celebrate fighting ignorance. Apparently some of you have no problem deriding the institution that fosters and perpetuates your beloved scholarly standards in the first place. msmith, you seriously implied that studying shit and teaching what you have learned is not as worthwhile as some other kind of job. **Where the fuck do you guys think all your precious citations come from?
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The mandate to be responsible and independent is not something special reserved for certain subsets of people. Responsibility comes under a lot of banners, and managing to hold down a job is in no way superior to any other kind of demonstrated responsibility and independence. It only happens to be the most common and universally recognized.
I agree, but I’d take it a little further. “The real world” is a trope of the status quo. “Real” means what can be measured in numbers, ideally monetary numbers. Anything else - anything moral, ethical, humanistic, etc. - is useless or dangerous, including any ideas about how things might be different, or, Og forbid, better.
In “the real world,” we are each alone with our self-interest, and it is the only proper focus of our lives.
Judging by my experience, the “real world” seems much harder than college, on paper, but IRL turns out to be about the same or even easier. It’s certainly true that once you begin your professional working life, you lose the privilege of doing your work whenever you feel like doing it, and depending on the sort of dress codes you find yourself under, no more jeans and sneakers during the week (then again in many instances that may not happen). On the plus side, if you have an occupation that you are at least halfway interested in, the four or five hours of an afternoon working go by faster than ninety minutes of lecture. I don’t know if this is true for most people, but I certainly found that my time spent in working at a job, and being actively engaged in working went by much faster than time spent in lecture halls or seminar rooms.
Nothing to do with “worthwhile”. Just more sheltered and theoretical. More disconnected from the consequences of your decisions. It’s the difference between textbook knowledge and real-world experience.
My education is in engineering and business. Both are very different in the classroom than they are in practice. It’s one thing to design a building. It’s quite another to actually be in the field trying to get it built. Same with running a business or nearly any other activity.
I disagree. It is where people have to make hard decisions and produce real results. And often, those results are measured in monetary terms.
It sounds like you are talking about people who are the opposite of “ivory tower elites”. People whose experience consists of a very narrow view of the “real world” such that they are resistant to change. The mantra for these people is often “that’s the way we have always done things”.
What does it matter since everything here is mostly mental masturbation? We can discuss economics or management strategy or anything else you like for 50 ages. And maybe some of it might actually give some people some good ideas. But if I can’t apply any of it to my job or to managing my team, it is nothing but a theoretical exercise.
It annoys me because the only time I hear it directed to me, it is meant as a degrading insult to my job, implying that college professors don’t work, get money for nothing, and are so fundamentally disconnected from the so-called “real world” that their opinions about anything can be discarded.
In fact, a significant number of people on this very board believe the above.
To me, the idea that those of us who teach or work in academia do not live in the real world is a part of the ongoing anti-intellectual bias in American society.
And college professors.
Before I became a professor, I worked for about 9 years in clinical settings, mostly with adults with profound mental illnesses like Schizophrenia. After that, I worked in research with the same population. I know EXACTLY how what I’m teaching applies in real-life situations. This is true for a significant number of my fellow professors. Why is it then that our “real world experiences” are somehow not as real as yours?
As did I - I worked full-time, attended grad school full-time and T.A.'d part time. A significant number of my fellow grad school students did likewise. Why is this not the real world?
Contrary to popular belief, people in academia can be fired, laid off, disciplined, or any of the other negative things that occur outside of academia. And EVERY industry has its own rules and ways of doing things. Why is it that only academia ever receives this criticism?
In the Real World, every single member of every industry other than academia is automatically dismissed with contempt and disdain? Regardless of their personal competence, their personal experiences, or their work ethic? Really? All engineers are dismissed as not living in the real world? All computer professionals? All wait staff?
I am at this point completely used to, and expect to hear, contempt and condemnation regarding academia not only from members of this board but also from people I meet in the “real world.” According to the “real world,” professors and other teachers have never and will never accomplish or contribute anything of value to our society, because if they were competent in their fields, they’d be working in them instead of teaching.
It’s funny, I’ve heard living in the city described as not being part of the ‘real world’ by people living in the country. People living in the city describing the suburbs as not being the, ‘real world’.
It’s hyperbolic nonsense designed to make the speaker feel superior. That’s all it exists for. Kind of like selfish/altruistic in most cases.
sigh Guess I’d better get used to it…
Anyway, if this ain’t the real world, I’ll take it. Somebody has to do it.
The “real world” is where everyone is responsible for their own welfare, and every action has consequences that must be dealt with.
Real world - You don’t work, you don’t get paid, you don’t eat
Not “real world” - Someone else is supporting you, allowing you to things that are not paying work without negative consequences to yourself. (NOTE: I am NOT trying to belittle the hard work college students do, or the importance of doing it. I was a college student once myself, and my parents supported me, and my degree is very important to the career I now have. But while in the situation, I was not entirely in the real world - my parents shielded me from a good portion of it.)
Real world - You shoot people and steal cars, you go to jail. You get shot, you die.
Not “real world” - You shoot people and steal cars, you get points. You get shot, you have another life left, or you re-start your game.
I think ‘the real world’ is a place where people are deeply vulnerable and responsible.
However many of those pressures still exist in college. I know in college my stress levels were higher than on my job I got after college (where my stress levels were 0).
As long as you have a job and can support yourself, the real world isn’t that scary.
There’s nothing asshole-ish about those expectations, but there’s also no question that some bosses out there are definitely among the ass class. No cite, there’ve certainly been plenty of threads around here on that subject.
cmkeller Actually, in the ‘real world’ people rape, murder and commit larceny all the time without any negative consequences.
Comparing college to Grand Theft Auto is silly.
If you worked 9 years in a clinical setting, that is “real world” experience. As opposed to simply studying something and then teaching what you studied to someone else.
Again…if you were working full time, then you are in the real world. If you are simply attending classes while living off grants or student loans, that is not the real world. I’m not sure why this distinction is unclear.