What is the ultimate goal of your political ideology?

Very kind of you to say so ready, but I’m more or less in agreement with DCU that the question is too broad to be answered meaningfully. Founding a society or nation has a whole lot of varied (and sometimes contradictory) objectives and constraints, and I don’t think it’s really possible to boil them down to some “ultimate goal”.

But if I had to come up with some sort of summary of the most fundamental goals, I guess I would be pretty satisfied with the following list:

  • form a more perfect union
  • establish justice
  • insure domestic tranquility
  • provide for the common defense
  • promote the general welfare
  • secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity

It’s not original, though. :slight_smile:

Freedom; i.e., the absence of coercion.

I’ll try to answer the OP as I understand the intent–which is, I think, to reveal our values vis-a-vis the “ultimate” purpose of government.

Our…my…well, just “the” goal is: to create those conditions of life that maximize the potential excellence of every individual.

Some notes:

  1. there are particular “excellences” that are functions of changing circumstances; what is excellence in a child will not in general be what is excellence in that same person on hirs deathbed. To “maximize the potential excellence of every individual” is, by my meaning, to bring to fruition the various potential excellences available along life’s road.

  2. I am indeed speaking of the individual, not some sort of society-wide average. Thus to create conditions that impair the potential excellence of ANY individual is, logically, to fall short of the goal.

  3. An “excellence” is, approximately, “the greatest instantiation of The Good.” (“The Good,” a philosophical term, is not the same thing as “moral goodness,” “being good,” etc. I don’t know that there are any definitions that are both precise and noncircular.)

  4. In GENERAL, the wise exercize of personal liberty and “freedom to choose” is an excellence relevant to all stages of life, and attendant to nearly all other excellences. However, unwise uses of one’s liberty are about as bad as wise uses are good: whatever perfections reside in the soul, the mortal body needs assistance to tap them. Noncoercive modes of assistance are to be preferred.

  5. In general, the future has no special claim on the present. It is no more right to sacrifice present persons for (possible) future ones, than vice-versa. We’re not talking Vanguard of the Proletariat here.

  6. If it isn’t clear: “excellence” has to do with the essence of each person as a particular unique individual; it is not expected that it would manifest in the same way for different persons, even in the same life-situations.

  7. I am speaking of goals–ultimate things. How we get There from Here is a very different question.

Maximizing human freedom is the ultimate goal. However, people are never means to an end, but ends unto themselves. It is therefore necessary for government to have a role in a civil society. The tendency is for government to grow beyond its means and to grasp more and more power. Somehow this seemingly inexorable march must be stopped. Like so many on the internet, but seemingly not so much in other places, I tend to be a classical Liberal. Nothing like a leftist however. Nor do I always agree with the Libertarian Party. Like Sam I tend to be hawkish.

I’m for sending troops to Liberia. I don’t think it is a particularly easy or safe mission. The justification lies in the historical connection between our two nations. We owe them, it’s a mess, that’s good enough for me.

What I don’t understand is the apparent lack of follow through after recent US interventions. If the reconstruction of Afghanistan or Iraq is going well, the administration has done a good job of keeping the secret.

Scott

Per your request, I have revisited the thread to read your post. I certainly like what I see. The goals you seek are by-products of freedom (defined as the absence of coercion):

Although people often believe that they know best what’s good for someone else, seldom do they believe that someone else knows what’s good for them better than they do themselves. The fact is that, so long as a person is capable of giving meaningful consent, no one else can make a right decision about what is excellent for that person. People always do exactly what it is they want to do within the confines of permissions extended to them by their governors. People might wish a good education on everyone else, but not everyone desires a good education or even agrees on what one is. People might wish good health on everyone else, but not everyone desires good health or even agrees on what that is. Many problems would instantly vanish if everyone simply minded his own affairs. “If I knew for a certainty that a man was coming to my home with the conscious design of doing me good, I should run for my life.” — Henry David Thoreau, Walden

Only if freedom is universal within a society can every individual within it realize his full potential. If even one man is not free, then no man is free. A law that oppresses one individual breaks down the whole society, and thus oppresses everyone in it. “The majority, oppressing an individual, is guilty of a crime, abuses its strength, and by acting on the law of the strongest breaks up the foundations of society” — Thomas Jefferson, in a letter to Pierre Samuel Dupont de Nemours

I would say that it is the ethical equivalent of the moral good. Both morality and ethics are subsets of philosophy, and in the case of morality, love is the facilitator of moral goodness; whereas, in the case of ethics, freedom is the facilitator of ethical goodness. Just as God grants man free moral agency, so ought government to grant man free ethical agency. Note that this does not mean freedom to do something, but rather freedom from something — namely, freedom from the coercion of other men. Incidentally, in morality, sin is the opposite of love; i.e., sin is the obstruction of moral goodness. And in ethics, oppression is the opposite of freedom; i.e., oppression is the obstruction of freedom.

It is, in my opinion, important to line up the cart and the horse properly. First, there must be freedom from coercion, and only then can there be freedom to choose. Failing to align these priorities is a fatal mistake, leaving people wondering why they may not choose to bash their neighbor in the head for no reason. Likewise, an improper understanding of freedom leads to such mind-boggling phrases as “constitutional rights”.

Well said. It is a woeful fate when coercion spans not only distance, but time as well.

It has been said that free men are not equal, and equal men are not free. Again, there is an equivalence between the moral and the ethical. Whereas there is a moral freedom of will, there is an ethical freedom from will. A man who is peaceful and honest (that is, he initiates neither force nor fraud) ought to have an honorable consent. Whoever robs him of his consent is a thief and a tyrant.

There is only one way, and the journey is the same as the goal: freedom. (Yes, you’re right. There is another analogy here. ;))

I hope that medical treatment is not the sole basis for the formation of a government.

Governments are uniquely endowed with the ability to use force against citiziens. That is the source of the fear. “Big corporations” cannot coerce you into using their products. Do you have an example of a true corporate monopoly that was not backed up by the government (eg, the way the phone company operated before deregulation)? Unless the corporation gets it’s monopoly status from the gov’t, there is almost always an alternative for the consumer. But in every instance, there is only one government for the citizens to interact with.

I’m confused, because ethics is a set of rules and standards by which a society, profession, etc. deal with each other. It is doing what someone else expects. I reach out my hand, you grab it and we shake hands. The government has nothing to do with it, but if you pull me off balance that is a violation of ethics.

the complete and total abolishment of any kind of government for any reason, forever.

if the rest of you were a civilized as me, this would not be a problem.

Of course not, I just added a point I think that has been forgotten by others.

That is how it should be. The reality is, however, different.

While it is true that much of this force is supported by the government, it’s the corporations who form the government (by getting them elected) and who exerce the force on the government first.

A few examples:

  • You can’t buy your water where you want. The big water companies (Lyonaise dex eaux, Evian) control the world water market and have pretty dirty business practics in the 3rd world. Water is not free anymore where it used to be, etc.
  • You can’t buy electricity where you want, even if you are a huge company, because there is not enough compettion.
  • You can’t buy a running shoe without supporting child labor.
  • You can’t buy gas without being involved in a whole bunch of dirty politics in the middle east.
  • You can’t take a flight without supporting the defense industry (Boeing, Airbus).

And the worst of it: the most time, you don’t even know.

Libertarian,

I applaud the values communicated here. I don’t see how your to and *from[/]i distiction addresses the complexity here.
I can simply state, “I deserve the freedom from coersion of other men to keep in check my desire and ability to enslave those men.”

The struggle for freedom always falls on the freedom to exersise ones ability and desire to enslave others. Both the ability and desire to enslave other beings is a very present and demonstrable option for human beings. Arguably, ironically, reproductive consent in this species depends upon it in varying degrees. Capital flows into the hands of slave owners and stays there, otherwise they wouldn’t be slave owners. This hording is obviously related to the ability to defend and educate a child who can hopefully procure more slaves and do so indefinately, and thus creates a compelling selection factor for reproduction.

The question seems to always become, “Why can’t I take advantage of a person that I can take advantage of, if it allows me the luxury to delve into the vast complexities of how great a person I truly am?”

I would argue against slavery in an ideal government. Any government that eradicates slavery, is IMO, the only government worth constructing. If only one government can eradicate slavery, and the result is that everyone dies in that generation, then I believe that humans have expressed their potential. If humans can reproduce under such a government, it would be a victory for purpose and validation for optimism IMO.

The question becomes, how do you make it hard for someone to have a slave, who only wants to have a slave and not destroy their freedom? If you make it easier to proactively elude slavery than to become a slave, the purpose of all current success becomes inverted, and all of those who have had the time to ponder their own greatness and amass such vast stores of wealth will deploy their violent means even more feircely then before, as their entire value system is being inverted, attacked and threatened, as one attacking their freedom to choose (or believe that they are choosing) the destiny that makes them happy.

Off Topic below!!!

IMO, coersion, oppression and slavery only vary in severity to the degree that a person is not aware of the direct cause and effect correlation. Coersion is considered a ‘light’ form of breaking trust or violating consent. To a more knowledgable being, one persons perception of coersion is the knowledgable beings intentional act to enslave someone against their will, or informed will. I don’t find that it is meaningful to distiguish these general concepts as somehow referring to different behavior.

To the degree that one percieves their trust breaking to be ‘innocent’ ‘necessary’ ‘acceptable’ ‘not the serious kind’…

I am of the mind that this belief (or denial if you will) is motivated by the benefits of what occurs from this behavior of enslaving others, and that this is allowed only through a result of pure ignorance. If you actually believe that there are ‘white lies’, I am of the mind that the difference between this and direct malicious slavery is only a matter of knowledge. In this case, the ‘white lie’ veiw lacks the knowledge to understand how this is intentionally used with malice to procure the very effects that they are seeking benefit from, and doing so at the expense of another.

excellent post, t_leave I wholeheartly agree :slight_smile:

My point in what you quoted was that government ought to have nothing to do with it (except for insuring that the dealings of all are peaceful and honest). The problem is when government decides, for example, that hand-shakers are criminals and that hand-shaking is a crime. Or else, when it manipulates circumstances either by legislation or decree to establish an advantage for one hand-shaker over another.

T_leave

One part you missed quoting was this: “Only if freedom is universal within a society can every individual within it realize his full potential. If even one man is not free, then no man is free.” If you and you alone are free from coercion while everyone else is subject to the whim of your will, then the society is not free and all men, including you, are slaves. The freedom from must first be applied to all men. What remains then for each is his own freedom to do — that is, within the confines of all others’ freedom from.

The important main agenda: Ever increasing progress. Inventions. Pushing the final frontiers.

Without any form of scientific research, earth would be just a meaningless little planet. It’s mankind’s will to understand what makes the universe tick and to explore, learn and build, what’s giving us significance.

As for freedom: Every law and governmental edict should balance the following factors: Freedom of the individual, the necessity for order and the possibility for abuse.

Form of govenrment: I’d like to retain the current popularity contest that is voting. But the candidate shouldn’t be the one who is the best trickster, charismatic liar or elbow-man, but rather someone who fulfills certain minimum qualities. Everybody would be welcome to apply, but after a strenuous pre-selection, only about 10 candidates would remain and then the voting would begin (Hmmm, on second thought, this sounds like american idol, just for presidents…).
All the ministers should have some basic knowledge of what they are doing, as opposed to unqualified people. For example, if you want to be the minister of health, you better are a registered nurse or a doctor.

I do not agree.

I think the development of our social skills is more important than scientific progress.

We think from a first world perspective, but two thirds of the world are suffering despite of our “progress”, Apollo, International Space Station and genetic food.

Mankind would be better if we learned to live together, share our knowledge and our wealth.

The fact that a small part of humanity is doing good scientific research and is able to go to space means nothing on a global scale.

Well, if everybody would live in utopian harmony, play bridge all day, never be sick, wouldn’t age and would always be happy, but there wouldn’t be any flow of new ideas… I’d think that earth might as well be a barren wasteland then.

That a lot of people are living in poverty is a great tragedy, no doubt about it. Still, I’d prefer what we have today, to what I outlined above.

If we can combine both, having great living conditions for all of mankind and having a strong drive to solve life’s last mysteries, it would be perfect imho.

Non serviam.

Public utilities get monopoly power from the governement. But you are free to start your own running shoe company that does not use “child labor”. No one is stopping you.

No one is req’d to supply you with product options that conform to your political idealogy. You, however, are free to forgo those products for other things. Don’t fly. Take a train or bus. You cannot forgo interacting with the gov’t. Try not paying taxes and see what happens.

That is the difference.


Ideologies and Ultimate Goals
Response to Kimstu, Dewey, and Minty Green

The goal of every human life can be summed up in one word: happiness. You may prefer a different word, but to me “happiness” is the best choice. Every human being wants to live a happy, satisfying, fulfilling, life.

What is happiness?

Happiness always has 2 questions: A who and a what.

Who
Who needs to be happy for you to be happy?
Many people cannot be happy unless certain other people they care about are also happy. For instance a mother may not be able to be happy unless her children and loved ones are happy and healthy. Or perhaps many minority advocates cannot be happy unless their peer group is freed from oppression. Or an Iraqi immigrant may not be able to say they are fully happy until they know their country is free from the rule of a harsh ruthless dictator. And finally, some people may not give a squat about other people and their happiness revolves only around the state of their individual life.

What
What will make you happy? What do you and the people you care about need to be happy? This too varies from person to person, but most people I believe have the same fundamental needs to be happy. In fact, I believe the ingredients to happiness are summed up quite nicely with 2 words: Wealth and Wisdom.

The wealth needed for happiness is basically everything you need that money can buy: food, shelter, safety, security, power over your life, freedom to do what you wish, space within which to live, and free time to explore and enjoy life.

The wisdom needed for happiness is that which money cannot buy. Wisdom is knowledge of what is most important. The specific details of what wisdom is can only be determined by each and every individual conscious being. We may try to engrave and capture wisdom within words and symbols, but wisdom cannot be captured within words anymore than it can be bought with money. Wisdom is the answer to all the most important questions a person needs to address in order to live a happy life. The first task on ones quest for wisdom is to determine exactly what those questions are.


The Purpose of an Ideology

The purpose of an ideology is to be a blue print for the structure and organization of society. Every ideology, and every person who voices a political opinion, should be able to sum up at least a rough approximation of how every person’s need for at least an opportunity to live a happy life shall be met (or not) if society were structured the way they want.

If you are a socialist, you should be able to summarize how your ideology manages every individual person’s need to pursue happiness. How does your ideology manage every person’s basic needs to acquire wealth and wisdom?

Ideology and the Acquisition of Wealth
To begin with, how will people in a society built upon your ideology gain and use wealth? How much safety, security, power, freedom, space, and free time, shall every person in your society have? How will such things vary among the population? Will everyone have all of these things in precisely equal amounts? Will every member of your society have an equal opportunity to acquire these things?

Ideology and the Acquisition of Wisdom
One must also ask how an ideology relates to every persons need for wisdom. Would a society structured according to the blueprint of your ideology give people the maximum freedom to choose the meaning of their individual life? Or would the government define much of life for every member? Will the government tell people what to believe or will it simply facilitate every person’s ability to learn and choose their beliefs on their own? Will people have the freedom to say whatever they wish or will the state limit every person’s ability to express their individual wisdom? Will every member have an equal opportunity to learn, grow, and acquire wisdom?

The Ultimate Goal of an Ideology
If you fight for a particular ideology, whether it is an established school of thought or a philosophy all your own, your ideology does have an ultimate design for society. This ultimate design is the “utopia” of that ideology in the sense it is the world you want based upon that ideology. It may not be utopia in the sense that it is an impossible place where everyone is perfectly happy and there is no fighting or suffering, but it will be utopia in the sense it is the best society we can build based upon your ideology.

This is not to imply that once that design is implemented all work stops. Just as when you design a car, you must then use the car, maintain the car, and most importantly, modify the car if your needs, desires, priorities, or the world itself changes.

What is the ultimate form of society your ideology aims to achieve? The easiest way to recognize the answer to this question is to imagine you had the power to restructure society today or found one from scratch. Imagine everyone in your society respected your opinion and would be more than happy to word or reword the constitution (and laws) exactly as you would wish. If you had this power (and you were able to resist the temptation to become a dictator) exactly how would you structure society? Describe it. Exactly how would it work?

After you describe the utopia of your ideology, I would ask you this question: in the utopia of your ideology, does every person have a reasonable opportunity to acquire wealth and wisdom? In the utopia of your ideology, does every person have a reasonable opportunity to live a happy life? And perhaps most importantly, to what extent is this opportunity equal?

These three questions are to me the most important and essential questions one can ask of any ideology. For these three questions measure the ultimate successfulness or failure of an ideology in relation to that one single thing every person cares about most: happiness. In fact, for me these three questions sum up the fundamental problem an ideology is made to solve. To me the goal is to construct a society in which every person has an equal opportunity to live a happy life.


Kimstu and Dewey, I wrote this essay in response to your comments, but I guess it boils down to this:

To me, every individual human life boils down to one simple desire: the desire for happiness. The exact details and the nature of happiness is something we each must define for ourselves. Consequently, people need as much freedom as possible to live their life as they choose.

When choosing or building or measuring the value of an ideology, the question to me is always, “How does that ideology relate to every person’s desire for a happy life?”

Kimstu, you say that constructing a society entails “a whole lot of varied (and sometimes contradictory) objectives and constraints”. Then how do you choose what those objectives and constraints will be?

I choose the objectives and constraints that best achieve the goal of a society in which all members have an as equal as possible opportunity for happiness, while balancing the goal for equality with the desire for maximum individual freedom.

How do you choose the objectives and constraints for designing a society? (In other words how do you choose the objectives and constraints entailed in your ideology?)

Some other questions which may be easier to answer, which again basically ask the same thing:

Do you want to live in a society in which some people have all the power and others have little or none?
Do you want to live in a society where many people are disadvantaged?
Do you want to live in a society where people are not equal?
Do you want to live in a society in which you know on the day of a child’s birth the exact odds that child has of growing up happy vs. growing up to be a career criminal? Moreover, is it ok if many children are born with a 90% chance of growing up healthy and well off and many children are born with a 90% chance of poverty, illiteracy, and a criminal record? I would argue you know these odds based upon the income level of his parents.
Or do you want to live in a society where every child born has, if not an equal opportunity for happiness, at least an equal enough opportunity for happiness? And if so, what is equal enough?

Scott Dickerson:

Are you saying that it is more important to create conditions that maximize the fulfillment of each persons potential for excellence, then it is to create conditions that maximize the potential for happiness? I mean is it more important that a person is excellent than happy?

For instance, many children are put into conditions that drive them to fulfill excellence in, for example academic, music, or athletics, but they are made miserable by these conditions. I assume this is not desireable?

In my opinion, if you create conditions that best nurture a persons spirit, maximize their opportunities to explore things that they find interesting and fun, encourage, love and support them, they will fulfill their potential for excellence with far greater zeal and success than if you simply drive them. But the conditions you have created are not for the purpose of driving excellence. They are the conditions that maximize a persons opportunities for happiness.