Laziness?
(;))
Well, OK, I’ll go report it, I guess. It seems kind of silly to have to go and report a post when we know from this thread that it already has the moderators’ attention, but whatever, procedures is procedures. I’m flexible, I can jump through a hoop.
Or, maybe it doesn’t have the moderators’ attention. Yeah, I totally noticed that Czarcasm isn’t a mod anymore. I was just testing to see if the rest of you did.
Well, Miller’s engaged him in the Pit thread.
And sorry Czar - I forgot you handed in your tazer.
We’ve been thru this before - no, it isn’t trolling to laugh at people in the Pit. That’s what it’s for, in case you haven’t noticed.
No you don’t, because no I didn’t.
Sheesh, you people.
Regards,
Shodan
Well apparently a troll is:
What would you think someone is that posts this:
?
Yeah, I can’t see any way that what Shodan posted in the linked Pit post doesn’t precisely and exactly meet the definition of trolling. He says that it amuses him to rile people up, and he is going to continue to post things specifically in order to do so. And he didn’t say a damn thing about confining this behavior to the Pit, either.
And the difference between that and every other Pitting is…?
Regards,
Shodan
Well, once I pitted the guy who stole my backpack out of my car. I was angry at the guy for stealing. My intent wasn’t to poke and prod at other members of the SDMB so that I could have a laugh at their outrage. It was to express my anger at the car thief. Having a look at the front page of the BBQ pit right now, I see:
- Someone expressing irritation at people who bitch about tourists
- Someone expressing irritation at the news media for focusing on fluff stories
- Someone expressing anger at someone who stole a camera (allegedly) during a workshop
- Someone expressing dismay at their bad experience with online dating
- Curtis LeMay upset at the meanies on another MB who don’t like him
And so on. See, the difference between these and trolling posts like yours, Shodan, is that these people are expressing genuine anger, outrage, frustration, dismay, etc. They are not posting inflammatory stuff solely to get a rise out of other people for personal entertainment. I have a feeling that you know all of this already, but you did ask.
Actually I was talking more about Pitting of other posters.
However, the basic errors into which you have fallen are these.
[ul][li]You have omitted one of the common qualifications of trolling as defined on the SDMB, which is that the post must be insincere. None of my posts are insincere - I do genuinely believe in the positions I take (with the usual allowances for exaggeration, sarcasm, hyperbole, rhetorical questions, and so forth). [/li][li]THe other is that you have included the word “solely”. I do not post only to stir up trouble, nor is my only motive to stir up trouble. I post a fair amount, in most of the forums, and on a wide variety of topics. [/ul]The problem is simply that I am a conservative on a very liberal messageboard. I don’t think I’m bragging to say that I am reasonably well-informed, and fairly well spoken. [/li]
The main part of the problem is that I enjoy making fun of liberal sacred cows as much as many liberals enjoy making fun of conservative sacred cows. This is not trolling, unless you want to include ideological purity in the definition, and it isn’t there yet.
Winning arguments is fun, as I’ve pointed out before. And when some buffoon descends into ranting and tantrums and misrepresentation and logical fallacies, that is a signal that I have won the argument. And therefore I enjoy the sight.
Not that it matters all that much. The mods decide what is trolling and what is not. My posts are not, and you will be told as much, at least by their lack of response to you.
This is not (yet) an echo chamber where no one disturbs the Force with heresy. Boo hoo for you.
Regards,
Shodan
[quote=“Shodan, post:250, topic:544298”]
However, the basic errors into which you have fallen are these.
[list][li]You have omitted one of the common qualifications of trolling as defined on the SDMB, which is that the post must be insincere. None of my posts are insincere - I do genuinely believe in the positions I take (with the usual allowances for exaggeration, sarcasm, hyperbole, rhetorical questions, and so forth).[/li][/quote]
This is a misconception, as has been pointed out already in this thread (see post #4):
From the registration agreement:
Bolding mine.
Nothing there about the remarks being insincere; if they are stated for the main purpose of stirring people up then they may constitute trolling.
[QUOTE]
[li]THe other is that you have included the word “solely”. I do not post only to stir up trouble, nor is my only motive to stir up trouble.[/li][/QUOTE]
Again, as has been pointed out previously, this is not a requisite for trolling either. As long as your motive includes stirring up trouble, that may constitute trolling.
Thanks, Colibri.
FWIW, Shodan, I’m well aware that not all of your posts here are to stir up trouble. Some of your posts are indeed interesting, informative, and/or entertaining. Which is what makes it all the more disappointing when you lapse into trollery. It is additionally disappointing because, as you point out, we have far fewer conservative posters here than liberal posters. I enjoy reading political debates here on the SDMB because the quality is relatively a lot higher than in a lot of other places on the Internet. So to have one of our conservative posters openly admit that he is posting in bad faith because he likes provoking people into ranting, tantrums, etc., is really disappointing. There have been more than a few times that I have been tempted to engage in a thread on here based on a point you’ve made in one of your posts, but usually I hold back, because I know that you’ve openly said that your goal in political debates is to enjoy jabbing at other people to make them upset. That’s not debate, that’s trollery.
This is just my personal opinion. I believe that many of your posts do essentially constitute trolling, and the post quoted by kingbighair is an admission of trolling. Now, standards are different in the Pit, where that post was made, and I am not going to second-guess the Pit mods. But I do think your behavior is frequently pernicious to the board.
See my previous. Your allegation that I have admitted posting in bad faith is false. You are making things up. Ergo, I am winning the argument. Which is an example of what I meant. I didn’t post what I did with the idea that it would cause you to begin misrepresenting my posts. But seeing that you now done so means that you have no better response. See how it works? The fact that you respond as you do does not mean that I caused it. But I can still be glad to see it. As I said, that’s not trolling.
As I have mentioned more than once, my remarks are not made with the main purpose of stirring people up. But I will ask the same question - would you disagree that Pitting another Doper is done for the main purpose of stirring up trouble, and in the hope that the Pittee will come out looking bad? Is that trolling?
You need (ISTM) to keep in mind the distinction between posting an unpopular opinion even when you know it is unpopular, and trying to stir up trouble.
Regards,
Shodan
I don’t actually believe that. Even if you believe what you say, you state things in such a way so as to deliberately irritate people, which you’ve said is part of the fun for you. And then there’s the whole “Regards, Shodan” thing, which you have admitted you do to be annoying.
I think most Pittings of other posters are done because there has been a genuine dispute or disagreement in another forum, and the Pitter wants to be able to continue the dispute under relaxed rules. If a Pitting is done merely to yank someone’s chain, it may be trolling.
You need to keep in mind the distinction between posting an unpopular opinion even when you know it is unpopular, and posting that opinion in such a way as trying to deliberately irritate and aggravate other posters. From what I have seen, you often tend to do the latter.
This is a very unpleasant response. My previous remarks in this thread were made in a spirit of trying to honestly share my thoughts on this topic without being inflammatory. And instead of responding in kind, you smugly inform me that you consider me to be misrepresenting you, and that means I have no better response, and this makes you very glad. Why in the world would anyone ever want to try to have an actual conversation with someone like you? I’ll save my effort for people who aren’t simply trying to score “ha ha, I made you mad” points off me.
Accusing someone of posting in bad faith and then having that person respond with, essentially, “Ha ha, I win,” does not make me think that my initial assessment was wrong, by the way.
Shodan said:
These statements
sure sound like an admission of posting in bad faith.
Not all misrepresentations are intentional misrepresentations. Many are because you were unclear in what you said. If you find many people “resorting to misrepresenting you”, that suggests that you need to consider your own statements.
It is not trolling to enjoy calling people out for posting fallaciously. It is not trolling to enjoy pointing out your opponents’ hypocrisy, or the errors of the leaders of their ideologies. However, it may be trolling in how you go about any of the above.
I thought that was what he was trying to tell you?
Much of it is because many people don’t actually read what is in front of them. See this post, or this, for a couple of recent examples.
As long as you have a consistent standard, sure. But if you pass over examples of liberals mocking conservatives in order to upset them but scream “trolling!” when it goes the other way, not so much.
There is hardly any distinction to be made. It is not possible to express some opinions in such a way that some Dopers will not go ballistic. If someone posts something even vaguely positive about Sarah Palin, for example, you are going to get the same kind of response no matter how it is phrased. And, as seen in the couple of examples above, the effort to be as clear and precise in expressing an idea is largely wasted on a substantial portion of the Dope. They aren’t listening anyway, and their biggest gripe is that not that you weren’t clear and non-confrontational, but that you were.
It is not possible to dissent even slightly from the group think hereabouts without triggering the usual assholery from some clown. The fact that I find a certain malicious amusement in it rather than (usually)blowing up and flaming back (so I can be banned) or finding it intimidating and leave is, I suspect, a good deal of the problem.
Like I said, none of this matters.
Regards,
Shodan
PS -
Bullshit. I started a thread asking, in general, if people found it irritating, and the consensus was that most didn’t care one way or the other. At one point, there was a ruling that it should be only done in a sig file, which I compiled with. Then there was an official ruling that signing your posts was OK. Yes, I know pseudo whatever the fuck it is kept claiming for a while that it was done to say “Fuck you” but he was making that up too.
So the notion that it is evidence of trolling is, as mentioned, bullshit.
So save it.
I wouldn’t say there was a consensus. A significant number of people said they found it irritating, annoying, or stupid.
And, from here:
So you may not mean “Fuck you” all the time, but it was you yourself that said that it sometimes does mean that. So no one was “making it up.”
I note that Shodan has accused others of dishonesty in this thread, when they have made claims that have a reasonable basis in fact, more than reasonable IMO. Bad form, but par for the course with this guy.
That said, I don’t think his admission that, “The fact that it irritates you and makes you pitch these tantrums is part of the fun,” is going to amount to much.
That doesn’t appear to be a particularly constructive method of fighting ignorance.[1] Oh, and Shodan’s claim that MsWhatsit was making things up when she summarized his views as, “admitted posting in bad faith” was a dishonest characterization, IMHO. Unpleasant. As an aside, it’s difficult to describe such recursions in clear language.
[1] I try to avoid Shodan most though not all of the time. I see he has borrowed some arguments from myself and Dio in this thread, with some possible misapplication. I guess imitation is the most profound form of flattery.