This is a spin-off from this thread:
which was getting hijacked by a discussion between Libertarian and myself, which I would like to continue here.
The question under discussion was the origin of the universe, and specifically whether the universe itself could be uncreated. There are two possibilites:
A. Everything is created. There is nothing that is uncreated.
B. There is at least one thing that is uncreated.
Now, anyone who claims that the universe was created by an uncreated being/thing/force must admit that B holds. However, once you admit B, you have to allow for the possibility that the universe itself is (one of) the uncreated thing(s).
Libertarian’s answer is that the universe cannot be uncreated
“Supernatural” as defined by Libertarian means
a definition which says nothing about being created or uncreated. I deduced that there was a missing premise in Libertarian’s argument, and it should run as follows:
- Only supernatural things can be uncreated.
- The universe is not supernatural.
- The universe cannot be uncreated.
I asked Libertarian to provide support for (1) and (2). His response was
Apparently the “onus” is on me not only to fill in the missing premise in Libertarian’s argument, but to provide evidence for or against it. :rolleyes:
OK, Libertarian, it’s your turn: either show me what’s wrong with my argument, or patch the holes in your own. Please remember to
- Provide support for your assertions.
- Avoid concealed premises.
- Avoid red herrings such as energy, unless you are prepared to explain what they have to do with the debate.
- Oh, yeah, and do something about that […stunned stare…], it’s unbecoming.