What is wrong with my Pizza crusts?

Cafe Society
1

Have been making pizzas at home for a while, and the crusts just aren’t working out right. Strangely the first half dozen seemed to turn out pretty well. I wondered what the big deal was. Then somehow it’s like I’m regressing. I realize there is practically a cult following these days with making pies at home, with wood fired ovens and 00 flour and the rest of it. I’m not a complicated guy, just want a good pie at home using commonly available ingredients and equipment. They don’t have to be perfect, just better than frozen or carryout from our corporate friends.

Have used KA bread flour and regular AP flour, with and without EVOO, mixed in a KA for 5 to 10 minutes, w/sugar, without, etc, let it ferment in the fridge for a couple days, or not. Using a thin aluminum pan, or heavy cast iron Lodge, top rack, bottom rack, middle rack, pre-heated pan at 500F, or not, and every combination I can think of. Thin crust would be OK. A thick crust would be OK.

Consistency is the problem, partly. The crust will either have a gum line, or will be very bready and thick, or chewy. Usually they aren’t “bad” but this isn’t rocket science and it’s aggravating.

Generally punch down the dough, let it rest, stretch out a skin and let it rest again and pile on the toppings. I did find that generally since 500F is not hot enough it’s best to take it easy on the sauce and toppings. Some suggest to partially cook the crust first, and then layer on the toppings. Part of the problem is also the cheese will burn by the time the crust has cooked fully, have tried the tricks there too.

Seem to have the best luck with oven as hot as it will go, verified 500F and slide the pie on a hot cast iron pan on the bottom rack. But the crust isn’t that slightly crisp but fluffy deal that everyone knows and loves. A little added sugar in the dough seems to help. Help!

2

Make sure that not only the oven is preheated to the proper temp but also the stone (you say you have used cast iron, never used it). Depending on your oven you might try cooking it on the wire rack if the bottom gives off a lot of radiant heat.

3

For a start, what’s your crust preference? Do you like them thin and crispy, or do you like them thicker, more in the style of a Domino’s crust, e.g.?

I find baking on a hot stone works best, but preheated cast iron should work pretty well, too. I’ve got a recipe I swear by, and it works well for either of the styles above. I’ll share it if you want. The secret ingredient is honey.

4

Directly on the rack might be worth a try! Hm… Preference is on the thick side, with lots of sauce and cheese, but a thin crispy crust is fine as well. As long as it’s not like chewy bread, a crisp crust with that pillowy light texture is good. I know it when I taste it!

Wondering if I’m not working the dough long enough, or letting it rise/rest enough after stretching out, or it’s too wet. It’s gotta be something simple. Flavor is improved after a couple days in the fridge.

5

I have found that the crust will rise too much if the oven isn’t hot enough, or you use to much sauce or toppings, or if you let the crust sit too long before putting it in the oven. So when I make pizza I have the oven at its highest setting and I roll out the dough and quickly add the sauce and toppings and put it in the oven wasting as little time as possible. I also warm up the sauce first, if it is cold to start with (i.e., leftover sauce from the fridge).

6

FWIW… my dough recipe. It’s an old Wolfgang Puck one. It’s worked well for me for years. For thin crust, this recipe makes 8 servings. For a more substantial, thicker crust, the recipe makes 4 servings.

1 cup warm water
2 tsp. active dry yeast
½ tsp. sugar
3 cups bread flour
2 TB. olive oil
1 TB. honey
1 tsp. salt

Stir water, yeast and sugar in bowl of a stand mixer until dissolved. Let stand in warm place 10 minutes until foamy.

Add flour, oil, honey and salt to yeast mixture in the bowl. Knead on Setting 2 with dough hook for 4 minutes. If kneading by hand, knead for at least 7 minutes. Dough should be smooth and elastic, not too stiff but not wet, either.

Lightly grease the bowl and turn dough to coat. Cover with damp towel. Let rest 30 minutes in warm place. (Mixture will almost double.)

Punch down dough. Divide and shape into 4 or 8 equal balls. At this point, I either refrigerate it for a day or so before using, but for at least 2 hours. Remove from refrigerator at least 1 hour before baking. Flavor will improve after more time in the fridge, or you can freeze it and use the dough as you want it.

Preheat oven with stone to very hot (500 degrees). Place oven rack in lowest position. Prepare pizzas. Sprinkle stone with cornmeal or semolina flour before placing pizza on the stone. Bake for 15 minutes, 12 if thin crust without too many toppings.

Good luck!

7

Thanks for taking the time and sharing the recipe Aspenglow. I will definitely give that a try.

8

Right, I’ve discovered there are some huge differences in the way of setup, a preheated pan inside the oven versus cold, top rack versus bottom, thick crust versus thin. I’m close to getting a pie that is just right for my oven and such but it’s aggravating.

So your point about the crust rising too high if the oven isn’t hot enough is a good one. I’m wondering if I’m making the crusts too thick (pizza too small) for my oven. It’s a good one, an electric. But if I’m in a hurry or impatient and don’t stretch the dough out, have had one pie the crust that must have been over 1" thick. Small dense bubbles.

Maybe I’ll try really thin crusts to start and work up to thicker skins. The recipe I have been using most calls 4 cups flour, makes two 12" to 14" pies. It just kills me that I can’t make something better fresh, from scratch, than a frozen store bought crust. I’m saving money (carryout isn’t too bad, but delivery prices are insane. So I can eat the mistakes with the satisfaction of spending about a 1/4 or less. Thanks for the advice and tips everyone.

9

I’m curious; where are you getting the cheese and toppings that you use in your homemade pizzas? Because to me, pre-shredded mozzarella from the deli section of the supermarket costs a lot, compared to pizza from a restaurant. And the sliced pepperoni is also expensive.

10

Next time, compare them to their unshredded/unsliced forms. You may be surprised how much of a markup you’re paying for convenience (and preservatives, because of massively increased exposed surface area. Oxygen is a harsh mistress).

11

Actually, I did compare block mozzarella to the pre-shredded stuff a couple of years ago, and was surprised that the difference was only very slight.

On the other hand, when I worked at Chuck E Cheese in college, we shredded block cheese ourselves, and we started with really big blocks. So maybe in larger quantities, it’s affordable.

12

This is a long shot but what kind of yeast are you using? It is a live product that can expire, even in the freezer. (This reminds me that my bag of SAF in the freezer is probably over 4 yrs old. :eek:)

According to Kenji, the baking steel is the answer. For those of us without ninety bucks to plunk down for a piece of armor plating, a upside down cast iron pan placed on the bottom rack is a decent substitute. Preheat your oven to the max temp and then let it keep heating for 20 minutes before starting.

I’m super lazy and my KA is stashed on a really high shelf, so my favorite pizza dough is no-knead. It uses time + water to develop gluten and flavor, with the tradeoff of being a little harder to handle (nothing a little parchment paper can’t fix)

Recipe
200g all purpose or bread flour (1 cup)
135g 110F water (2/3 cup, don’t use water from the hot tap because ew)
8g olive oil (1/2 tbsp)
5g kosher salt (1 tsp)
2g active dry yeast (1/4 tsp, not a typo. Less is more)

Mix thoroughly and transfer to container with top (a 2 quart yogurt/leftover container is perfect) Leave it for 8 hrs on the counter; it will triple in size so vent the lid slightly. At this point you can make pizza or stash the dough in the fridge for 3-4 days, where it will continue to develop flavor.

13

You need a baking steel like **quimper **says.

Basically the idea is that the slab of steel holds a lot of heat, much like cast iron, and transfers it fast and evenly to the dough.

What we do is based on Kenji Lopez-Alt’s recipe on Serious Eats, except that we use the steel instead of the pan.

Works wonderfully- we can vary the texture of the crust by how much we roll it out- very thin (like 1/4") makes a crisp, cracker-like crust, while 3/8" or so makes a slightly more bready crust. A 4 cup recipe ought to make 3-4 pizzas of roughly 12" diameter.

As far as the rest goes, the big trick is to make sure that your veggies are par-cooked beforehand; something like onions or green peppers aren’t in the oven long enough to actually cook appreciably.

Also, the fresh mozzarella seems to behave the best, using the steel and the broiler method.

14

A baking steel is a good investment if you are serious about at-home pizza. A pizza stone is a good alternative and can cost much less than a steel.

I fire the oven for a few hours before pizza-ing. Hot as it will go, so 550 for most ovens.
I want the steel and the oven to have the best chance of retaining heat as I open/close the door and place pizza on the steel.

Lastly, bump, I must respectfully disagree. That partially cooked, sweet and crisp texture/flavor is crucial for real pizza experience. Cut them thin, don’t put too much on, you should be good to go. Don’t cook your onions and peppers! Mushrooms, on the other hands, benefit from a pre-roasting to concentrate flavor and get some of the water out of them. No other veggies belong on pizza. I have spoken.

15

The Lodge pan is thick cast iron 1/4" to 3/8" or therabouts. It is massive. 15" across at the widest part of the top, and 14" at the base.

Interesting, Bump, that you are suggesting 3 to 4 pizzas can be made with 4 cups flour. The yeast is standard dried SAF bought in bulk, don’t think it’s a factor, dough doubles up fine.

The problem as I see it is the limitations of a home oven that won’t reach 800F or 900F as pizzarias do so the techniques have to modified. Some people suggest using the broiler for a time, others partially cook the bottom of the pie on the stovetop burner prior to the oven etc.

Would using some EVOO in the bottom of the pan help? Some commercial pizzas are actually fairly greasy at the bottom of the crust and/or the box they deliver. Will have to try a very thin crust with light toppings and see how that works and work up. Thanks again everyone for the advice! Just talking about it is gettimg me jonesing for some 'Za.

16

One point that I didn’t see addressed up-thread (but may have missed) is the cooking order. I’ve had pretty good results from a recipe I acquired from an Italian co-worker, and the key point to avoid the cheese burning is that you spread the pizza with sauce, drizzle with EVOO, then bake for 10 minutes. After ten, pull it out, add cheese and toppings and bake for a further five (or until the cheese has melted.

17

Why waste the money on extra-virgin olive oil? If you feel oil is necessary, use Pam or another cooking spray. But I think some pizza places used a dusting of flour or corn meal.

18

Well after writing and reading about it so much I had to make a pie. Much improved! Warmed up the oven for a couple hours instead of the usual one. Divided the dough into thirds instead of half when using 4 cups bread flour. I can live with results, it browned really nicely and was crispy yet tender instead of beef jerky. Ate the whole pie, yeesh. I think I could probably get away with a thicker pie if I made them smaller aka “personal pan” pizza. Seems to me the deep dish style with lots of cheese and toppings don’t work as well given the limitations of a home oven limited to 500F.

Somebody mentioned using honey instead of sugar. Didn’t have any so substituted Maple syrup, this is tasty - used a little in the sauce. Not enough to really identify what it is, but man that is good!

19

My guess is that your dough was probably too thick and not hot enough to get good oven spring before, so it was tough and chewy. When you roll it out thinner, it works better, especially without a steel, and ends up crispy.

20

Isn’t a cast iron pan equivalent to a steel? It seems to work excellent, as cast iron usually does well in everything else I’m not surprised.

In any event last night I had one smaller ball of dough left, some sauce, and no mozz. I did have a tiny chunk of monterey jack though, and pepperoni, and a little cheap parmesan. I made about a 10" pie and laid down very light sauce, and cheese by necessity, and lots of garlic and pepperoni. It was very good and sort of reminded me of Shakeys from way back.

It seems obvious to me now the problem was, as you mentioned, way too thick of a crust, and way too much sauce and cheese, and not letting the oven get hot enough. Thanks for the advice everyone!