What is wrong with the brains of the Vote Nazis?

EM: *And the reason it is upsetting for Vote Nazis to say “if you don’t vote you don’t have a right to have your opinion heard” is because it is a false, un-American, fascistic statement which seeks to inhibit the liberty of fellow citizens. […] It is an attempt by self-righteous people to intimidate and guilt people into silence. […]

I am appalled at the hatred directed at people who aren’t playing the game the way the Vote Nazis want it to be played. […]

If a man stands before a public forum and expresses his political opinion, and another person stands in opposition announcing before all that the man is a stupid, ignorant parasite who has no right to speak or criticize and is less of a citizen because he has not fulfilled his civic duty to vote […]*

I still think that this is rather overheated rhetoric, directed more at a straw Vote Nazi than at what the self-identified Vote Nazis here are actually saying.

We are not saying, “If you don’t vote every chance you get, then you have forfeited your right to free speech and your opinions ought to be suppressed.” What we’re saying is more along the lines of “It’s part of a citizen’s duty to be (at least somewhat) informed and active politically, and that generally includes voting. If you are chronically apathetic and ignorant about electoral issues, then your complaining about electoral results comes across as lazy whining.”

Now, if you really are being persecuted elsewhere in your life by fundamentalist extremist Vote Nazis who seriously try to suppress the opinions of anybody who happens not to show up at the polls one year, you have my support and sympathy. But I haven’t seen evidence of such persecution on this thread.

*Sometimes when I stiil feel the flush of patriotism I witness to non-voters and tell them of the struggles of the common man over human history to have a say in his own destiny rather than forever being subject to tyrants and dictators. *

Hey, welcome to the club. :slight_smile: That’s where most real-life Vote Nazis are coming from too, as far as my experience goes.

Why should I, or anyone else who has made the effort, listen? We did what we could to influence the direction of our lives, you didn’t (not literally you, but you in the generic “someone who didn’t vote” sense). So why should I care what you have to say when you don’t take care of yourself first?

Kimstu has it right, no one is likely to say that anyone should lose their right to free speech just because they don’t vote, what we’re saying is that one has more credibility when one participates in the process. It’s all well and good to say that you are informed but choose not to choose (a candidate), but unless you make an effort to affect a change in your life through the most fundamental means available to you, I just can’t respect your complaints, since you had your chance. Like I said, apathy breeds the status quo, and all the letter writing and protesting in the world cannot hold a candle to the casting of one ballot.

Right. It takes a genius to mark a ballot. Or is it the act of voting which bestows sociopolitical omniscience?

I once voted in a referendum to amend the state constitution. The question on the ballot was phrased in convoluted legalese. There was a dipsy-do in the middle so that if you were for amendment you voted “no” and if against amendment you were to vote “yes”. I had to read it three times before the meaning was clear to me. After the vote I asked five co-workers what their view was and how they had voted. (I already knew they had the same political bent as me.) All five voted the opposite of what they intended.

It’s just a fantasy. You think it makes you special and you can only feel special if you make other people feel insignificant.

Think about it. You people who push the vote are the very people who can’t understand that voting is not a duty! YOU are not credible. If you cannot be trusted to understand the difference between rights and duties, how can you be trusted to render decisions on complicated issues?

I don’t vote, and I don’t complain. I don’t complain because, for the most part, I don’t care. I don’t care because usually the winner of an election disappoints around ½ the people. If the other person won, the other ½ of the people would be disappointed. I almost registered to vote in the Philly mayoral election because the republican candidate wanted to get rid of the city wage tax, but then I found out he wanted to raise some other tax. Net gain to me? Zero.
I just live my life. The way I see it things aren’t to bad now the way it flops back and forth from Republican to Democrat every once in a while. IMO, if either one of those parties ever won a considerable amount of elections in a row, the whole country would go to hell.

Boo.

Having a particular elected dictator dismissed, thanks to a rule of politics that applies to one particular jurisdiction, proves nothing.

The laws imposed on the people, before and after the regime change, will continue to be imposed and fresh ones will be passed whether or not the majority of the people approve of those laws.

Your error is in believing that those politicos who have been elected as “representatives” of the people really act in accordance with the will of the people.

They do not. Apart from good old “Election Day” the people have no power of any consequence.

You proudly claim to be, government teacher. From my standpoint you are probably misleading your very young, trusting and unworldly students in your Civics class by trying to convince them that by some strange kind of telepathy, telekinesis, or political alchemy the will of the people somehow makes itself manifest in the political process simply by virtue of the fact that they have each exercised their right to cast a vote for some politico or other in an election that is held from time to time.

I have on previous threads given a summary of how the will of the people could be ascertained with a high degree of accuracy. You don’t need an expensive referendum, just a small group of the people chosen at random from the electoral roll. A jury of 5 men and 5 women to act as representatives of the people to consider and decide on proposed legislation, point by point. The politico (for whom it will be illegal to refer to him or her self as a “representative”) being obliged by law to act in accordance with the jury’s wishes. (The politico’s compliance with the jury’s wishes to be matter judged entirely by the jury in question, not a court).

Ah yes, you might say, some of these bills run to half a million words, and we need someone with the intelligence of an expert professional politician, such as the alcohol brain damaged Senator Ted Kennedy to consider them carefully.

That is nonsense, of course.

The USA also has about 180,000 pages of regulations in the federal sphere alone, to help oil the wheels of government.

In my opinion, that is insane. No law needs to be longer than an easily digestible 2 to 4 thousand words in length. Ideally, there should be an upper limit imposed by any constitution on the amount of legislative verbiage that can exist at any given moment.

Perhaps a maximum limit of 6 million statutes of no more than 10,000 words each could be set. Peru has already exceeded that limit. No one knows what the law is in that country, but I’m sure it must cover everything in the known universe by now.

Because I regard the present system as a transparent fraud (but, I agree, more subtle than the obsolete Divine Right of Kings fraud) you accuse me of laziness. I don’t believe you have the imagination to understand how powerless the average elector is in his or her ability to influence government policy at any level.

However, you should at least be able to understand the utter pointlessness of someone voting in an election if they reside in a district where one party or another cannot lose.

In such circumstances, unless one has a casual stamp collecting kind of interest in politics, it is not a rational activity to: -

Vote in such an election (whether for or against the party you prefer is immaterial).
Acquaint yourself with local political issues.
Acquaint yourself with the local political “representative”.

Perhaps if you had been born, raised and educated in a different age, you might have been a believer in the Divine right of kings, the sole practical purpose of which was to try to solve the problem of continuity of government by establishing rules of succession and to maintain stability. Don’t knock it too much. It was the best they had for a long time, but having lots of wars of succession was the main bugbear.

By the time it became more than 80% successful at the smooth succession task – mid 1800’s – it had become irrelevant, having been replaced by the elective dictatorship model. (I lump together the Village Headman model – where one man is deemed fit to govern a country – the USA, France, and most South American Countries - and the parliamentary style, Council of Village Elders model, committee of elected dictators. A distinction with no difference).

You have dutifully and faithfully swallowed everything that has been fed to you on the generously heaped plate handed to you by your mentors, from the time you were the age of your current group of young students, or before, until your graduation from whatever Arts faculty you attended.

All I have done is question the validity of similar pap fed to me from an early age about what is so often incorrectly referred to as “democracy”.

You may call me lazy for refusing to act as though I believed in the pap fed to me, but I’ll refrain from calling you something in return.

I am not angry or defensive at all. You are free to hold on to any and all beliefs that provide you with maximum comfort.

You say “it seems to you”. Where does the contradiction manifest itself?

Under a system where a President has real, not symbolic political power, a President would normally have the power that a village headman traditionally exercised, not just over a village, but over a whole country. for a specified term of office. The people then have no further say in how he (yes HE 99% of the time) governs that polity.

That is the essence of dictatorship. A periodic election does make it sweeter.

Yes, that happens sometimes.
That proves what?
That the people rule?
It is to laugh.

Where to begin?

AOB: I ask you this - since you obviously don’t think the present system is adequate, What are you doing to fix it?

Because I haven’t seen your face at the barricades lately. If voting doesn’t change anything, then what will and why aren’t you doing it, instead of just whining? Voting works, whether you say so or not. This country evolves politically through the voting booth, and it serves to keep the radical extremes in check. A brief glance at the history of the last 100 years in this country shows that. If you aren’t satisfied with the district you live in - move! Vote with your feet. If all you can do is complain that you have a better system, and that The Man keeps you down, and you don’t do anything about it…then you are the parasite I accused you of being. Put up or shut up.

AOB: *Under a system where a President has real, not symbolic political power, a President would normally have the power that a village headman traditionally exercised, not just over a village, but over a whole country. for a specified term of office. The people then have no further say in how he (yes HE 99% of the time) governs that polity.

That is the essence of dictatorship. *

That’s a fairly bizarre definition of dictatorship you’ve got there: “the power that a village headman traditionally exercised”. :confused: Which village? Which headman? Exactly what “traditional” society are we talking about here, and why should we accept a vague allusion to its unspecified customs as a functional definition of dictatorship in a modern democracy?

Yes, that [i.e., electoral removal of an elected officia] happens sometimes.
That proves what?
That the people rule?

That the voters exercise some control over the governance process, which is part of what you seem to be denying, against a lot of reasonable and factual arguments to the contrary.

I have on previous threads given a summary of how the will of the people could be ascertained with a high degree of accuracy. You don’t need an expensive referendum, just a small group of the people chosen at random from the electoral roll. A jury of 5 men and 5 women to act as representatives of the people to consider and decide on proposed legislation, point by point. The politico (for whom it will be illegal to refer to him or her self as a “representative”) being obliged by law to act in accordance with the jury’s wishes.

:eek: But that is positively nutty, on so many levels. In the first place, haven’t you heard of the “small sample size” problem in statistical sampling? Ten individuals just isn’t a large enough number to represent a large population with “a high degree of accuracy” or even a moderate degree of accuracy. In such a small sample, general trends are easily obscured by small random fluctuations.

In the second place, even if you somehow did get an adequately representative cross-section of the population at large with your mere ten individuals, how are they supposed to be deciding on legislation? By consensus? By majority vote? How is that necessarily fairer than what we’ve got now? Moreover, how much time are they supposed to be devoting to this “considering and deciding on” all proposed legislation? Isn’t that basically a full-time job? How are we going to compensate them? Is the public at large going to be willing to be included in this random public-service lottery? If not, do we limit participation only to those who have expressed willingness to serve? Won’t that skew the representation? And how do we ensure that these ten individuals will be making informed and conscientious decisions instead of just selling their votes to the fattest lobbyist bankrolls? They won’t even have the frail safeguard of accountability to the electorate to help keep them honest.

In the third place, if all these people are doing is “considering and deciding upon proposed legislation”, who’s writing and proposing the legislation? Still the same old “politicos”, right? So these random “representatives” can’t do anything but rubber-stamp one choice or another, while all the available choices are still coming from the same old flawed and abused system.

And this is the brilliant new policy that you feel entitles you to look loftily down your nose at the rest of us poor shmoes who are still kludging along with sorry old representative democracy? Why, your system retains all the flaws of the current system while adding some more of its own. This is just about loony enough to shift you from the category of Pragmatic Vote Nihilist into the one of Out-and-Out Crank.

(Turning with relief to the saner criticisms of an actual Pragmatic Vote Nihilist… )

h_a: I don’t vote, and I don’t complain. I don’t complain because, for the most part, I don’t care. I don’t care because usually the winner of an election disappoints around 1/2 the people. If the other person won, the other 1/2 of the people would be disappointed. […] I just live my life. The way I see it things aren’t [too] bad now the way it flops back and forth from Republican to Democrat every once in a while.

Fair enough, but why do you think that is? Is it because the system is inherently immune to catastrophic misgovernance or other forms of getting “too bad”? (Thank you, Founding Fathers, eh? :slight_smile: ) Or is it at least partly because a lot of other people are putting in the time and effort to make informed choices and exercise influence responsibly and throw the bums out and all that jazz? I’m glad you’re fairly content with the system even if you don’t participate in it, but I think that to some extent you may be freeloading on the efforts of those who do participate.

IMO, if either one of those parties ever won a considerable amount of elections in a row, the whole country would go to hell.

Well, if that does happen (and IMO the current one-party dominance in the federal government is bringing us uncomfortably close to such a dangerous imbalance), I hope you’ll reconsider your Vote Nihilism.

Considering all the apparatti in the US gov’t, as well as the history of the country, and piling on the fact that the world (and ESPECIALLY the economy) doesn’t move at the same speed of Google, does anyone honestly believe that one single person can wreck the country? I hated Clinton, but I had comfort that no matter what he did, we weren’t going tits up.

True. I guess you could look at it that way. I understand that the system would not work if no one voted, but I don’t really consider it freeloading either. There will always be people that want to vote. I don’t feel like I am freeloading off of them if they want to vote, and if they don’t want to vote because they are “carrying my weight”, then 1) I think that’s a stupid reason not to vote if you really want to, and 2) fine with me. :o

I might decide to vote if things turn really bad, or if a person takes a really radical stance on something that I believe in (or am firmly against). Most of the candidates now though take a middle ground wishy washy stance that wont make that much of a difference once their term in office is over. That’s just my opinion of course, but things always seem OK to me no matter who is elected. Never great, and never terrible…just OK. Always people complaining and always people praising. ½ happy. ½ pissed.

In the words of the Master, “No need to be so reasonable about it.” :slight_smile: