For me it is like this:
We want everyone to be able to buy insurance without regard for pre-existing conditions.
But then people won’t buy insurance until they are sick.
Then we will require everyone to buy insurance.
But people will buy insurance policies that are worthless to check the box and still buy the policies with coverage when they get sick.
Then we will define minimum standards for coverage.
You can debate the details of that or reject the whole thing but you can’t say “get ride of just this one part…”
The most legitimate objection I’ve heard is in being forced to buy something you don’t want. I could support an opt out with an ID system that would allow all health care providers to refuse to treat you, even with lost of life a possiblity. The previous system required they get paid and then the cost was passed on - forcing the rest of us to pay for something we didn’t want - someone else’s coverage.
I couldn’t do it. If it were my job to sign off on refusing treatment to some asshole who is gaming the system, with lethal consequence or even just pain and suffering…I couldn’t do it.
If he knows before the bill passes that some plans can’t be grandfathered in, then you’d say he was a liar back then – and if he kept saying it after it passes, it’s something that’s not true and “he shouldn’t have been saying it”.
But if he only knew after passage, then (a) he made a promise without being able to keep it, which doesn’t much bother you; and (b) the “he shouldn’t have been saying it” part, the part that prompted your “so freakin’ what??”, is all there is.
So it all comes down to: did he know, before passage of the bill, that some plans couldn’t be grandfathered in? Well, it’s your IIRC; do you have a cite for that IIRC?
I’m pretty sure all plans were grandfathered in. Subsequently insurance companies made changes to some of those grandfathered plans to a degree which caused them to lose grandfathered status.
The people who liked their plans and couldn’t keep them lost their plans because the insurance companies were no longer offering them the plans they liked.
I’m not seeing it. There seem to be some additional requirements (primarily reporting) that apply to all plans including grandfathered plans, but all plans were grandfathered as far as I can tell.
There’s a link – provided by one of the posters defending Obama – that spells out how “Grandfathered plans aren’t exempt from all of ObamaCare’s new rules.” It then of course lists a number of requirements other than reporting: it’s all fees this, and waiting period that, and stuff about rescissions and dollar limits and dependent child coverage and so on. What aren’t you seeing?
Well, let me see if I’m following you, here: imagine someone says if you like your plan, you can keep it; and imagine I say great, because I like my plan, and so will keep it; and imagine he says well, no, see, your plan would first have to change in this way and that way and another way; and imagine I say, hold on a second; and imagine he says don’t interrupt; I wasn’t finished; your plan would also have to change in another way, and another other way, and another other way; and imagine I say but I wanted to keep my plan; and imagine he says ha ha HA ha.
If you think that’s what “if you like your plan, you can keep it” means, then, no, I’m not sure I can quote a part that would make your interpretation incorrect; I’d just say your interpretation already seems incorrect even before I quote anything else.
(Do you use that reasoning in any other context? Imagine you worked for a boss who asked if you wanted to renegotiate your contract – or, if you like your current job, you can keep it; your salary and duties and benefits, you can keep them, too.)
(And imagine you and he signed right where it spelled out that latter option.)
(And imagine you showed up for work on Monday to find your salary was cut in half, and your duties had doubled, and suddenly you don’t get dental benefits any more, and you have a different job title and a different job description – but, hey, other than it being a different job with a different salary and duties and benefits, it’s still the same job with the same salary and duties and benefits. How do you react?)
But these aren’t changes to the plan. They are rules that insurance companies have to follow and they have to follow them even in cases where the plan in question is grandfathered.
e.g. The insurance company has to chip in to fund PCORI for each plan it sells. Even grandfathered plans.
But you’re saying if I liked my plan and wanted to keep it, and my insurance company also liked that plan and was likewise perfectly willing to keep offering it, a guy said if you like your plan, you can keep it, and then – made it so I couldn’t.
If the plan I liked can no longer be offered by my insurance company, then – what?
No, but this business was widely discussed when he started back in with the “if you like your plan, you can keep it” bit back in 2013.
Anyway, let’s suppose this:
All plans that people had at the time the ACA was passed could be grandfathered in if they wished.
That didn’t mean you could sign up for plans after the ACA was passed, and be able to keep your new plan as long as you wanted.
Under those circumstances, Obama would have been telling the truth in 2009, but not in 2013. But his getting it wrong in 2013 didn’t affect the bill’s passage, period.
At any rate, if someone’s going to claim he was lying back in 2009, I think it’s up to that person to provide a cite.
*Or close enough for government work. I’m aware that there are minor aspects of the law, e.g. the Cadillac tax, that still haven’t taken effect.
But – as per the previous posts on this very page – even the ‘grandfathered’ plans weren’t exempt from a whole bunch of requirements; if you liked your plan, and wanted to keep it, and your insurance company was perfectly happy to keep offering it, the bill that became a law simply didn’t allow that.
Well, look, if we grant that the aforementioned bill which back then became the aforementioned law aforementionedly doesn’t exempt ‘grandfathered’ plans from a whole bunch o’ requirements, then I’d figure the thing speaks for itself…
Which posts on this page? I’ve skimmed 'em all, and I don’t see anything. Please quote or link.
Well, I still need to see your substantiation here, per my comment above. But the other thing is to substantiate that Obama was saying ‘if you like your plan, you can keep it’ back in 2009.
Cabbage posted this link, which includes spelling out a whole list of ways in which “Grandfathered plans aren’t exempt from all of ObamaCare’s new rules.” So if that was the bill that became the law…
…well, how about this link, to Politifact’s Lie Of The Year, complete with timeline? Plenty of quotes from him in '09.