What is your opinion of the S.C.A. as it stands today

Does that mean it didn’t happen?

Lady Feilimidh Dearforghail of Caer Anterth in (then) MK created a very successful Pages’ School with a comprehensive handbook explaining to the young students the workings of the SCA and how they could play a productive role within it. Copies were requested around the Known World. Some time later, submissions were invited for a Society compilation of texts, and Feilimidh wrote to offer her Pages’ Handbook – which was declined with the comment that they already had a text in that category. When the publication came out, Feilimidh discovered that it was in fact an abridged version of her own Handbook, credited to a lady from another kingdom, even using obviously traced-over copies of the same artwork (the key wards etc. were identical). One notice of copyright violation to the publisher followed, requiring correction labels be put in every copy and sent to every purchaser of a copy already sent out. It turned out the other lady had gone to the trouble of hand-typing the entire Handbook verbatim, changing only the credits and placenames, and the Society publisher had done the abridging. On the strength of this massive plagiarism, the lady in question had been about to receive a Laurel; this was dropped, but she claimed mental distress, and suffered no penalty.

Now you may wonder: did the Laurel then go to the actual author? Why, no, never, and here’s the reason why, quote: “Haven’t you heard? She threatened to sue the SCA!” … [See “notice of copyright violation” above.] And many years have gone past.

My late friend Master Solomon ben Jacob OL, who invited me to move to this state and housed me while I earned my first month’s keep, was a judge at the Pennsic Pentathlon where this happened, and verified the details to me: a gentleman who’d been credited the highest number of points and announced the winner turned out to have been inadvertently credited his wife’s points along with his own; when hers were subtracted, he had the second-most points, and Lady Gwynfreya ferch Llewellyn ap Morganwyn (a previous PP winner) now had the most points.

You’d think the solution would be obvious, right? Change who’s announced the winner? Not quite. “To avoid embarrassing” the already announced winner, it was then announced that Gwynfreya had also tied for first place.

On the strength of his “winning”, that gentleman thereafter received a Laurel.

The actual winner? Twice an actual winner? Never received a Laurel.

This is told in verse as part of “The Midrealm Laurels”, but I shan’t repeat myself.

Now tell me, DrDeth, as an Exchequer: if titles were pay, was the pay fairly handed out here, in either case? You could say the latter gentleman had not, at least by the end, claimed his wife’s points as his own… but he accepted the results of those points, the first place in the Pentathlon, when his own points entitled him only to second place; and that allowed him to accept a Laurel. IMHO, this is like handing back stolen tickets after you have crossed the line where they are checked (and torn in half). The honorable thing is not to cross the line (= accept all those results), but to see that the real winner does so.

Typo correction: “s” was missing in original above. Sorry.

our friend DrDeth wrote:

I know almost nothing about the SCA, but I did volunteer work in Scouting for many years. Taking credit and awards for accomplishments actually done by one’s underlings is business as usual for the BSA.

Nope. It just means it’s not common.
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Laurels are NOT awarded due to winning a competition.* Or even many. They are not pay. The gentleman likely had a huge volume of work and had been considered for a laurel for years.

The lady who didnt win? Likely did not have such a volume of work.

If you sat on a Peerage Council some day, you’d see how ridiculous the idea of someone getting a Peerage based upon a single act would be.

It took me 17 years and being a Great Officer *four *times to become a Pelican. Longer than some, but hardly unique.

It generally takes at least decade of solid work, teaching others, classes, and yes competitions to get a Laurel.

Can anybody tell me where I can mail-order or online purchases some Lady Tudor Glitz books?

Yet as Master Perygen Northhymbr OL points out, SCA titles are the only kind of “pay” anyone in the SCA [outside Corporate officers] ever gets. If having just won a competition [or having written a book, or having founded an organization] is cited when awarding the title, are we to disbelieve that this action was considered worthy of a title? If the title recipient did not DO that action, and someone else DID, how is that same action now not worthy of the same title?

For his work, you say. My goodness, that sounds like pay. But what if in fact he never won a competition on his own merits? Does the quality of his work have no bearing? So now it begins to seem that it was indeed very important that he retain his “winner” status in that Pentathlon, in order not to derail that Laurel. And that winning competitions in general helps win Laurels.

You’d be mistaken there. She’d been doing artwork and garb for years, providing loaner clothing to denizens and newcomers/visitors of her Barony, as Chatelaine and founder of the Golden Key, writing and publishing the Barony’s newsletter with articles, stories, songs, and poems – which she also performed. Yah: multiple talent. But all that was years ago. Now she’s medically disabled.

How ironic, because, by actual points honestly scored, she DID win (alone)… just wasn’t treated accordingly.

Titles are not pay. Awards are not pay.

I worked for 26 years in all sorts of positions before I got my service peerage. I know people who got it after 6 years. Are they being paid more than I am? I don’t care because this is a volunteer organization. If you look for fulfillment in awards and titles, you will always be disappointed.

And copyright violations happen all the time to all sorts of people (one that happened 5 years ago and was all over the internet happened to someone in the SCA who had an apple pie recipe stolen by a magazine).

Some of the women wear outfits that they are almost bursting out of the top.

Has any woman, or man, been told their outfit was inappropriate?

No worries, body and clothing shaming is alive and well in the SCA.

Just a nitpick/clarification: A recipe—that is, a list of ingredients and a series of steps using those ingredients to produce a result—is not protected by copyright law. However, if there is something creative and original about the way you write your recipe, then the words you use in writing your recipe might be protected as a creative and original work of expression under copyright law.

This is the case I’m referring to: Cooks Source infringement controversy - Wikipedia

So it was an entire article—not just a recipe—that was copied.

Sorry for being imprecise. It’s been 5 years.

You can win a dozen competitions and not get a Laurel. You can get a Laurel and never have won a competition. Laurels are not about winning competitions.
http://laurels.atlantia.sca.org/faq.php

*1. What is a Laurel?
According to Corpora a Laurel "…must have attained the standard of excellence in skill and/or knowledge equal to that of his or her prospective peers in some area of the Arts or Sciences. The candidate must have applied this skill and/or knowledge for the instruction of members and service to the kingdom to an extent above and beyond that normally expected of members of the Society.

The duties of the members of the order are as follows:

  • To set an example of courtesy and chivalrous conduct.
  • To respect the Crown of the kingdom; to support and uphold the laws of the kingdom and Corpora.
  • If in fealty, to support and uphold the Crown of his or her kingdom.
  • To enrich the kingdom by sharing his or her knowledge and skills.
  • To advise the Crown on the advancement of candidates for the Laurel."

In addition, as peers, a Laurel: "must meet the following minimum criteria. Additional requirements may be set by law and custom of the kingdoms as deemed appropriate and necessary by the Crown.

  • They shall have been obedient to the governing documents of the Society and the laws of the kingdom.
  • They shall have consistently shown respect for the Crown of the kingdom.
  • They shall have set an example of courteous and noble behavior suitable to a peer of the realm.
  • They shall have demonstrated support for the aims and ideals of the Society by being as authentic in dress, equipment and behavior as is within their power.
  • They shall have shared their knowledge and skills with others.
  • They shall have practiced hospitality according to their means and as appropriate to the circumstances.
  • They shall have made every effort to learn and practice those skills desirable at and worthy of a civilized court. To this end they should have some knowledge of a wide range of period forms, including but not limited to literature, dancing, music, heraldry, and chess, and they should have some familiarity with combat as practiced in the Society.
  • They should participate in Society recreations of several aspects of the culture of the Middle Ages and Renaissance."
  1. What do the Laurels do?
    Individually, Laurels are expected to provide leadership in the Arts and Sciences through continuing our research, teaching, and encouraging other artisans.

There are actually very few things that our Order does as a group. Their Majesties are required to consult with us before adding someone to our Order. We call this a polling. We spend a lot of effort to be appropriately informed on a candidate’s qualities when we answer a polling, by paying attention to the work of artisans around us and sharing that information with other Laurels.

The only other group activity we have is sponsoring the Persona Pentathlon/Triathlon at the Kingdom Arts & Sciences Festival, which we have done since 2004.

  1. How long do I have to be in the SCA to become a Laurel?
    Laurels candidates are not judged on the length of time they’ve been in the SCA but on the quality and volume of their work. The time in the SCA varies dramatically: we have members who have shot from an Award of Arms to Laurel in as little as 2 years; for others it was a thirteen year journey. It takes time to build up a body of work and research and to get that work visible around the kingdom, and a more typical duration for focused artisans is six or seven years.

Not a word about winning competitions.

Of course, it’s quite possible that the Lady was not as well connected as the Lord, and of course that can have a effect on how long it takes. No doubt. But the fact that he 'won" while she was “Also Winner” would make almost no notice in Peerage council.

What gets me is the SCA people who get way into this stuff and really think they are some lord or duke or knight or ancient warrior or something. A coworker of mine is in SCA and damn, he gets on a high horse sometimes and acts like we should be his vassals or something. He will start going into this warrior voice and tone too.

I used to have a roommate in SCA who married another SCA and they went by their SCA names in real life although it wasnt official (which admittedly sounded cooler). They had all 4 names on their voicemail.

It’s just a game.

Isnt it?

BTW, I once got to go to a couple of their groups events and had a great time. Wish I would have joined but at the time I didnt have the time and money.

The difference being: that wasn’t a violation by a publication of the SCA; and the victim of that violation wasn’t penalized by the SCA for complaining about the violation, was she? Wasn’t told she’d be forever barred from the peerage because of it? Even, with supreme irony, the exact same peerage that had just shortly beforehand been offered to her plagiarist on the basis of her own work?

Then how was “quality” established? In this gentleman’s case, his “having won the Pentathlon” was explicitly cited at his elevation. Why else was this mentioned, but as evidence of that quality? But the niggling little detail that some of the actual points that had put him in the winner’s position were not his, and that by rights he had never been anything but the second-placer, went UNmentioned.

The lady who with only her own points was indeed the sole and solitary winner had by that reason a better claim to the quality of her works – multiple works in multiple categories; it was a Pentathlon, not a matter of a solitary work or of a single type. And this was the second Pentathlon she’d won. The quality of her works seemed well-established. The volume I’ve already discussed. Although she and I are not friends and not on speaking terms, in all justice I can’t fault her on any of the other criteria, and particularly here she shone as if this passage were written for her:

Hospitality is the Chatelaine’s and the Golden Key’s raison d’être; among other things, Gwynfreya’s voluminous garb-making created a substantial garb closet for the folk of her Barony, including loaner garb for newcomers and visitors to events, so they needn’t resort to “two towels pinned together at the shoulders”. Many denizens also got much better permanent garb than they’d been able to cobble together on their own. You could walk around an event looking at people’s clothing, and there before you were volumes of Gwynfreya’s work.

This. This seems to hit the bulls-eye and split any arrow already there… because it is the one consistent factor (where known) in all the cases I’ve seen. I have certainly never seen a case where the better-connected person is denied credit for his/her own work, while the worse-connected person is awarded that credit… and if such a case ever slipped through somehow, I don’t believe it would ever be allowed to remain that way for long. And I think you know how implausible that would be.

So the SCA works almost exactly like the real world. Meritocracy is a good ideal, but rarely achieved. Connections count. Last summer someone got up in a meeting and said that a candidate would get a peerage “over her dead body”. That candidate is getting her peerage in a week. Was it due to connections? In part, yes. I spoke rather forcefully for her, as did many other ‘powerful’ peers. So getting good connections will get you somewhere. Big surprise. But I defy you to identify any group, anywhere who doesn’t work in essentially the same way.

You do understand what “peerage” means, right? For peers, quality is determined by their peers-to-be. No more, no less. I’ve won a few A&S competitions in my time. I’m never, ever going to be a Laurel (and that’s just fine by me). My wife’s held Kingdom-level office once, and she’s a Pelican.