What is your opinion of the S.C.A. as it stands today

In My Humble Opinion
101

In practice, yes. But winning competitions affords “objective evidence” to wave around, absent which people might suspect cronyism, e.g. scrawlers preferring scrawlers over better artists.

Yet when a competition outcome is (1) pressured and then (2) cited in giving a Laurel, the “objectivity” of it goes out the window, all that remains is the illusion – for everyone unaware of the scores fiasco.

Which reminds me of the very last time I judged an A&S competition, and why I stopped. The MK MoA, an old associate, had just set up new A&S rules, had invited me (as former Royal Calligrapher) and my fellow-calligrapher wife to judge, and would walk us through the new scoring process.

Two scrolls: (1) an actual court award, the Order of the Rose with illustrations very much in the style of the Book of Kells (as the artist showed by including photocopies of the source), even a depiction of the duchess herself. (2) a collection of exact replicas of Book of Kells illustrations, footnoted by source, with photocopies.

My wife and I both felt the first scroll deserved higher marks, not only for the execution of the detailed linework and coloring, but as a unitary design vs. a clump of pictures, and as creative art within a style vs. what amounted to tracery.

But the MoA showed us, paragraph by paragraph, that all such considerations counted only once, while copying something from a source and footnoting that source counted thrice, i.e. under three separate categories (such as “authenticity” which by definition excludes originality). Thus the copyist outscored the creative artist.

Likewise in other media, for instance a woodburned exact copy of a historical scrimshaw design (submitted with a photostat of the scrimshaw) outscored creative work – as all other properly documented copies did, necessarily.

My comment at the time was that the word “Creative” should be dropped from the SCA’s name, perhaps to be replaced with “Copyist”.

In more recent years since my departure, the MK has changed its A&S rules again… but the MK MoA won a Laurel while those rules lasted.

102

This amounts to a full confession. What you do and how well (“the quality and volume of your work”) rarely matters; who you know, or rather, who knows you, does.

And this defense amounts to “But everyone else behaves ‘the same way’!”

Oh? Do they really? In that case… why have such a pretense that the Society doesn’t behave this way? that the membership selections have anything to do with “quality and volume of work” or behavior standards or anything but connections, cliques, cronyism in fact?

If it’s not shameful behavior, why would anyone deny it rather than boldly (not admit but) proclaim it as SCA policy?

Because if (as you say) it’s true, denying it suggests being ashamed of it.

103

Show me in SCA policy where is says that humans won’t act like humans?

104

We’d been discussing the Laurels in specific, for whom one duty is “To set an example of courtesy and chivalrous conduct.” (Corpora p.32, VIII.B.4.b.ii.a)

Which doesn’t strictly answer your question of how they won’t act…

… just how they shouldn’t.

105

There would be no need for entire bodies of law if it was easy for humans to act less like humans. The trick in all of life is to act against human nature and be your better self. People in the SCA, even peers, fail to do this. Your example happened at least 10 years ago but I know there are still people in the SCA who try to act this way. While I wish the SCA was full of perfect people, it’s just never going to happen, so it’s our job to stand up and try to make it better. I do that every day in the SCA.

106

I went to the SCA dance classes for a number of years and enjoyed them very much. I never joined, though, for a number of reasons.

Pro: The people are (mostly) extremely nice and will happily answer any questions you have. You are welcome anywhere and they will literally loan you the clothes off their back. The dancing was super fun and they make sure everyone gets a chance, and men can ask women and women can ask men.

Con: Well… a few things, some of which are probably specific to my region.

  • First of all, nearly everyone I met had been part of the SCA most of their lives and had lived in the region all of their lives. I already feel like an outsider - I’ve lived here twenty years and I still have nothing on the people that lived here all their lives. I felt like an outsider even more and was (inadvertently) left out of a lot of conversations when people would talk about past things. Not their fault, but our SCA apparently is comprised of people who have been members all their lives.
  • Also, the SCA is REALLY PRECISE. Someone up there said the Ren Faire doesn’t allow nylon tents; my experience is totally the opposite. I listened once to two young men at an SCA dance class mocking some poor young lady who had had the temerity to wear nylons to an event…they went on and on for about twenty minutes. The SCA is way more of a stickler to rules.
  • Also, the adherence to history is really strict. They have guidelines, but they expect you to do independent research in your local library to get your identity. This rather feels like homework!
  • Clothes…you cannot even go to a single event without garb. I’m sorry, I was uncomfortable borrowing someone else’s sweaty garb.
  • No Asians. That’s my problem and not theirs, but while there were a few black people, the SCA is still predominantly a white organization. The dance classes, for example, were 100% white…except for me.
  • Sewing! You’re expected to sew your own garb. I can sew, but I am not very good.

In the end, while it seemed like an extremely fun and cool organization, it was just too much of a time suck. The OP says he stopped because real life got in the way, and ain’t that the truth. I like to dabble in lots of different things. The SCA is kind of a full-time hobby. Oh, and camping on the wet ground once a year doesn’t really appeal to me - I’m not really big on camping.

BUT - just because it didn’t work for me doesn’t mean it’s not fun to join. History buffs would probably LOVE it. I’m not really a history buff, plus to be honest, if we are going to be that strict, an E. Indian girl doesn’t even have a place in that world. I like the Ren Faire because it’s minimal involvement and yet still fun, and they are very flexible on their ‘rules’ and don’t seem to care as much if a brown girl is doing the same fun things they are.

107

You say that as though the two examples were over.

May I point out that their status remains quo, all these many years later?

The two named ladies still live, and have never been given Laurels, while others (who have done palpably less) have.

They have effectively been used up to their burn-out dates and simply discarded.

And I really don’t mean to single them out as especially or remarkably abused; the sad thing is, I think their experiences represent many other people’s.

Well, then. Go to it. I await word of your successful endeavors.

You can see that mine have had no effect at all, and you can imagine how very few “connections” I have left after a verse like “The S.C.A. Game”…

108

In some SCA chapters there is a Chatelaine / Golden Key / garb closet with (cleaned) clothes for loan or purchase. Barring that, there are many online stores selling medieval and Renaissance garb.

This is dismaying, but must be dependent on location and local population/membership. “Predominantly white” is unsurprising given the European theme, but both Asian personae and Asian mundane members have shown up in the Midwest – the Dark Horde, assorted Samurai, Caer Anterth’s former herald the late Hidezo Ihashi (top row 2nd photo), for examples.

109

I’m not a Laurel in their Kingdom so I can’t speak to why someone did or did not get an award, nor why their subsequent service and work has not been recognized. However, being apprenticed to a Laurel often helps as you have someone fighting for you from the inside. You know, connections.

Well, you did single them out, by name even. But what you’re saying is that the SCA is an abusive group because they don’t give out awards the way you think they should. How, if you had the opportunity, would you fix that?

I am currently in the third year of my term as kingdom seneschal. I work hard every day to keep a kingdom running. I think it’s a pretty successful endeavor.

110

Every Kingdom, barony, principality, etc has their own way of doing things sounds like you stumbled across one of the jerkish ones.

I have been involved in the SCA for about 6 years now I do not own a period Pavilion and most of my clothing are simple tunics that I made myself some of which are assembled with fabric glue.

We have one guy in our barony who regularly comments to the effect that everyone should have a period pavilion if they want to be involved in the SCA as a minimum requirement. Fortunately nobody else agrees with him. The something you will often find among SCA circles is there is kind of a tradition of out researching each other as a form of friendly competition.

111

Most of the Asians and are minorities question some of that is going to end up being regional as well depart bear and he has four or five Asians and a couple more Asian personas who are not actually of Asian ethnicity.

I would have to do a little digging to verify but we just recently switched out a baron who was one of the longest sitting barons in the society who also happens to be black. Chapters around the San Francisco Bay Area and Los Angeles area have tons of Asians and Hispanics. I would say if anything at least in my area blacks would be the most under-represented however many of the blacks are there are often quite the achievers as far as status and position ( forementioned baron, steward of one of our major war events, etc.)

112

I have a similar challenge in my kingdom where i have a “power peer” laurel who does not like how i operate(she is not a laurel in my art form), make a circus out of a class i taught then failed to demonstrate meaningful skill in the art for after she tried to show everyone “how to do it right” (choked 3 tries at making a glass bead). When i blasted her for her interruption and obvious lack of grounds to trash me, she stormed off and I later became the subject of an investigation into safety practices and allegedly dangerous methodologies. My reply included links to numerous youtube videos showing things being done the way i do including some safety centric and helper videos from lampwork supply manufacturers. The end result…my situation requires further “review”, blah, blah. Last time i encountered the person in charge of the “investigation” i basically told her to kiss my ass.

I dont expect to be a laurel anytime before a few people die off.

Amusingly enough i have two laurels in other kingdoms who like my work, and are laurels for work in my art form. Once i have a little more practice i will be exploring that angle. I would love nothing more than to be laureled in another kingdom and come back with my scroll that my kingdom has to accept.

113

What happened to “… so it’s our job to stand up and try to make it better.”?

Or has that now become “It’s not in my job description”?

Congratulations! So stay there, do that, lift not a finger for anyone outside, and… why even bother to say “it’s our job to stand up and try to make it better” in the context of people in other Kingdoms, when your response to an attempt to take you up on it is to say instead that you’re not in that Kingdom and you’re busy with your own? It only turns your first, originally noble-sounding statement above into something more… hollow.

114

I should add, just for context, since you have previously pointed to “the real world” as a basis for comparison, that in the real world members of Amnesty International write letters to officials of other nations (even though they may never have had “connections” there, or comparable titles) in order to try correcting injustices. For instance, back when there still was a Soviet Union, I wrote to administrators of its mental hospitals where political dissidents were committed, asking that they be released or at least humanely treated in compliance with international standards.

Of course I could have declined to write any such letter on the grounds that I was not something-or-other in the Soviet Union (and all the other nations)… like a certain pastor’s excuse that “I was not a trade-unionist”, and all the rest of that list,…

115

“scrawlers”? And no, IME (from friends I know) being a Laurel is not, in any way, shape or form, about being the “better artist”. It’s about the whole package. Some of which definitely includes getting along to get along, and other people skills. The most frequent reason I hear for why my Laurel friends were elevated is “teaching”, not “skill”

Just goes to show things are very different, Kingdom to Kingdom. I’ve never been to or heard of an elevation where one competition was cited as the reason for elevation. Maybe this is because of my distance from most of my Kingdom, but I doubt it.

To echo your own words back at you - what effort did you make to get the competition rules changed right then? Because that sounds like a problem with those rules, not the field of A&S (creativity is given equal weight to authenticity in the A&S competitions I set the rules for, every time)

I think the fact that you use an expression like “won a Laurel” says a lot about how your approach to the SCA and mine differ…

116

That’s not “The SCA”, that’s two dicks. They’d have gotten an earful if they did that sort of shit anywhere near the Laurel and Pellies in my shire.

This is just encouraged, not required to play. People in my Shire who’ve been playing just as long as I have still go by “Bob[real name] of Adamastor [our shire name]” and that’s just fine.

It’s a poor group that doesn’t have dedicated, laundered loaner garb. But yes, it is the One Rule, I’m afraid.

It is very, very White, I feel you there. I don’t mind, so are my SF and roleplaying circles too.

Hells to the no!

Money can be exchanged for goods and services in the SCA. Same as in town.

Oh, yes, it is that.

I tend to think of the SCA as an umbrella body for a bunch of different individual hobbies. It helps me to think of it that way, at any rate.

So don’t go to the away event - I’ve never been camping in the SCA (our local annual away event always happens in buildings. Which is way more medieval than frigging camping, if you’re not actually at war)
Chaucer and Boccaccio didn’t have their casts out camping…

With respect, that’s utter rubbish - an E-Indian persona would, if anything, be much more in place than the hundreds of Japanese personae running out there.

My tiny (maybe 15 actives) shire has the usual Vikings, Saxons, Italian Renn and Elizabethans. We also have one Islamic Andalusian persona, one lady who alternates between Heian Japan and late-period Korea, and me, the Coloured guy who is Burgundian, Elizabethan and Edo-period Japanese as the whim takes me. Someone in a sari or salwar kameez would be more than welcome and in now way stand out amongst the kimonos, turbans and doublets.

If you’re not one for historic research, I agree Renn Faire is more your speed than the SCA, but please don’t think your local group is all the SCA when it comes to race issues.

117

I just wanted to hasten to say I know the Asian thing is my problem and endemic to my area! We don’t have a lot of Asians here to start with, and in my experience, Asians don’t look outside for a cultural identity, and Indians often look a little bit down on fantasy. (Or a lot, in some cases. My mom never understood why I liked sci-fi and fantasy and encouraged me to read Dostoyevsky. Thanks, mom.)

But that doesn’t mean it’s not a cool organization, and those two guys were just jerks, yes. What bothered me most was that no one bothered to say anything to them, like it’s no big deal guys, cool it.

My group did not have loaner garb as far as I could see, but like I said, everyone would have been happy to loan me theirs.

Here also it was really strict that you had to get your own name…at least for dance class you didn’t have to.

All this being said, however, I definitely would not say my chapter was jerkish as a whole…on the contrary, they were very welcoming and obviously really wanted me to join. I’m sure every chapter has its foibles.

MrDibble, thanks for your comments, these in particular:

Indians do joke about the Brits being in India for 400 years, though, and then one
day they all got up and left, and we were like, “Where are you going? We’re coming with…what are you going to eat?” And kind of followed them to all of the British territories. So it is not inconceivable that there would be E Indian ladies in this workd. :slight_smile:

118

This amuses me greatly - when I think of some Indian religious TV shows I’ve watched, like Ramayan and Mahabharat, they play exactly like fantasy movies, down to the magic weapons and shapeshifting demons, much more so than any similar Christian shows.

119

How true you are! But you know, that’s religion, and lots of Hindus believe that actually happened*, so it’s different.

*Kind of like the way Christians believe Jesus walked from the dead after three days. Some believe wholeheartedly, some believe in allegory, and most fall somewhere in between.

120

Oh, I get that - but to be clear, I’m not just talking about the events happening, 'cos Christianity is full of fantastic things too (look at the Moses story, for instance), I’m talking also about the way it’s filmed, very much using all the cinematic “beats” of a cheesy 80s fantasy flick.But then, that’s probably also because Bollywood itself still goes in for melodrama and flashiness in a way that isn’t popular in Hollywood anymore.