That is total crap. Any man I know whom ever committed rape would get no pardon from me or most other men. We do not laugh or joke at the subject.
What Kimstu said. The guy who talks about taking women out and getting them “liquored up”; the guy that women in the group avoid because he’s “hand-sy”. The guy who tells stories about sexual conquests that are probably/hopefully lies, because they sound like rape–stories of tricks, lies, manipulation. Much, much less so these days, but when I was a teen, that dude was . . . tolerated. Maybe not approved of, exactly, but no one told him his stories were gross, no one kicked him out of the party when women complained he was “handsy” with them, everyone just decided the stories are made up or highly exaggerated, because it’s easier.
The whole system of “male guardian of the woman’s chastity” is that good girls, girls who deserve protection, will always have it: dads and brothers when young, husbands and sons later. If a woman doesn’t have this, she doesn’t deserve it. There’s something lacking or flawed in her that she doesn’t inspire it, or she must have done something awful to have lost it. So violating her is fundamentally different from violating a woman who is “someone’s wife/daughter/sister”.
What about the guy who tells jokes about getting women “liquored up”?
As has been said several times in this thread already, nobody is claiming that most men would excuse or refuse to condemn the commission of a rape that they consciously recognized to be rape.
The point is that there are an awful lot of sexual assaults on non-consenting women that many men fail to recognize as rape, and that’s the stuff that the rapists often get a pass on. (From men and women both, I should add. Socially conditioned sexism and disregard for women’s autonomy influences attitudes and awareness in women as well as men.)
If that’s what the statement is about, then it is very poorly worded and IMO it would be better if it just plainly described the specific failure of men to recognise cases of rape.
Talking about ‘failure to shame’ if the issue is actually ‘failure to recognise’ is just adding an extra layer of abstraction to the issue.
- Whoever originated this statement is apparently a big believer in shame, because it comes across as an attempt to shame men for whom they do or do not shame.
I don’t agree at all. If the average man is told, “Who do you despise more, a woman with a hundred sex partners or a male rapist?” he’d say the latter.
Interesting discussion.
First off, pardon me to other Dopers, but this was an off-board issue that Leaffan has decided to bring here - I imagine I will get a warning, but since he has decided to continue with needling a survivor, I think it is worth it
In most countries, rape is a crime punishable by various terrible sentences, including death.
But it remains next to impossible to prove. Even when the victim does everything right, it still is next to impossible to prove. Ask most cops, lawyers and they will tell you the same thing. The stats are pathetic - out of ever 100 sexual assaults, six are reported. One MAY get a conviction.
(Anecdotally - when we do report, we often get to hear various versions of “It could not POSSIBLY have been So and So, he is such a NICE guy/good guy/has a wife and daughter/etc.” Because a “good guy” would NEVER rape someone - never taking into account that SOMEONE has to be assaulting these people if 1 out of 6 women and 1 out of 33 men are being raped. Predators are rarely the creepy guy in the bushes, it’s the really charming guy that always makes you laugh when you are on the golf course that you need to watch)
So, yep. Rape is terrible. Absolutely. So much worse than a woman having sexual appetites. Agreed.
But rape victims are rarely believed.
Ask any woman if she has ever hear rumours about herself as a slut/whore - that is generally believed with little to no proof. Hell, I came back with the reputation of being a “mattress”, “whore” several times, which is so weird, since I never actually had any kind of sexual contact with anyone on course. But I still got to carry that for years. I was 17 years old, but sure. Whore. Or hey, more recently, in my child’s school.
And no one ever questions if those stories are true.
But you knew all of this, because we already debated this, remember? When you compared sexual assault and slut-shaming to saying all women were gold-diggers, right?
Because that is basically the same thing. Apples to apples.
Leaffan, I am so happy you were able to get the validation you obviously felt you needed from a message board that has been criticized so many times for having a sexist view point. Yes, it was an inflammatory post, but the fact that you felt right away that you needed to defend “Men” rather than ask why I would post it should give you pause, shouldn’t it?
I hope you feel better, your ego stroked, your wound licked.
Because you were cut off from the conversation before several very loud and angry women that are still healing from EXACTLY what the post details came after you.
I changed my mind, by the way. Not about the post. About you.
You are not a “nice guy”. You are an oblivious, angry and bitter old man that cannot see that arguing that this does not exist against someone that **LITERALLY HAS TOLD YOU THEY EXPERIENCED IT **is cruel and inhuman.
Take care, you misogynistic (bad word - redacted).
Try not to trip over that enormous sense of entitlement and privilege. I hope it compensates for the many ways that you are lacking as a human being.
Even if you were to use the worst possible slur words to describe the woman in your question, I’m fairly sure the answer will still be the latter.
But, as has been explained, that’s a strawman of a characterization of the original sentiment. There’s a lot of stuff that is “rape” that doesn’t get a man labelled a rapist. There can be all kinds of rumors of sexual impropriety on the part of a man—he’s handsy, he’s pushy, he likes to get girls really drunk–that are ignored, tolerated, or disbelieved in a way that rumors about a woman–she blows guys on a first date, she fucked half the soccer team, she sleeps with married men–are believed, repeated, and social consequences are imposed.
Seconded, and it makes me think the OP is fishing for rage.
The president is the president, y’all. I’m just saying. Almost half the country supports a man who has more rape accusations against him than any elected officials before him, but that hasn’t gotten anywhere close to being impeached.
But try to imagine a female president guilty of even the crime of infidelity, and it’s very difficult.
It is not surprising that the opinions in this thread seem split by gender lines.
Comment seems like a bit of hyperbole, highlighting the rape-tolerant nature of our culture. This should be highlighted, again and again, until our culture and society aren’t so tolerant of rape (and rape-adjacent things like sexual assault, groping, and even harassment).
The discussion is illuminating, to say the least. In Shagnasty’s apology thread, a woman observed there was also a gender split- (some) men didn’t know what he was even referring to, while (some) women knew * exactly *what he was referring to. After that statement was made, several male posters did weigh in. #NotAllMen i guess.
Society has, in the very recent past, been accepting of rapey behavior. Sure, not if labeled as “rape” but there’s a lot of behaviors that are just… Fine. It’s just trying to get laid, she shouldnt have had so much to drink, it’s not rape if it’s not someone jumping out of the bushes with a knife, she shouldn’t have invited him up if she didn’t want sex, she eventually gave in, catcalls and harassment is really a compliment, look at how she was dressed! Sexual promiscuity was often used against victims in trial before rape shield laws. There’s the study of college men who said they wouldn’t “rape” but yeah, they might “force” a woman -almost a third of the residents. I’m sure all these men are social pariahs, because rape is never accepted, right? A lot of women do get shamed and cut off from social groups, while they see their rapist remain in good standing socially.
I want y’all to take a second and just think about this OP. What is this OP trying to accomplish? Before everybody gets in a knee-jerk lather at the mere mention of rape, look at the OP. Did Leaffan offer any context? Did Leaffan even attribute the “quote” to any particular person? This is a fucking hypothetical designed for one thing - to get people pissed off. It may not be exactly trolling, but it is obvious to me that that the OP is fishing for rage. Again, it may not be exactly trolling, but it is sure as hell troll adjacent.
What is your opinion of this comment: consentual sex and rape
“Men shame women for having a lot of consensual sex more than they shame other men for rape.”
What is your opinion of this comment: abortion and the death penalty
“People are more likely to condemn murderers than they are to condemn doctors who kill babies”
What is your opinion of this comment: immigration and genocide
“Aboriginal people are better off adapting to the status quo for the good of society”
What is your opinion of this comment: vaccines and civil rights
“The right of the mother not to vaccinate her kids supercedes all health concerns.”
What is your opinion of this comment: Dorothy and The Wizard of OZ
“It is natural for a farm girl to be sexually attracted to a straw man”
I don’t see why anyone would be outraged at the quote. It’s a bit of rhetoric aimed at highlighting a perceived double standard. And? That’s like 85% of content from social media. Like any statement pulled out of context, it has to be interpreted cautiously.
Well, I think post #29 provided some context (approx. 12 hours later).
Given that, Leaffan’s motives don’t appear to be entirely pure. With what little context there is, seems he’s inserted himself into a conversation and made it about himself and his opinions on the subject. Got his ass handed to him. Then went off sulking and butt-hurt, looking for sympathy in a relatively disingenuous way.
In both instances, what he should have said, was nothing.
I admit that I just skiimmed the thread before posting. I completely breezed over post #29. My fault, should have read everything, etc. etc.
But, heh, after you pointing this out, I actually like the OP even less. Hah! Screw that guy.