I don’t think they run the test on very many people, and they’ve already being trained and tested in other ways enough to weather the experience. The RM in the book makes the analogy of an animal that would chew off a paw to escape vs a human who would bear the pain, feign disability and take out the trapper, which is a threat to the species. It’s short/long term, but also personal/group gain.
But it’s also kinda bullshit, Paul tells Jessica, later, ‘don’t be so sure you know where to draw the line.’
I am pretty sure Paul could have said, “fuck this shit,” and walked away once the test was explained to him.
Would that be the end of his story arc?
Honestly, I can see no reason why anyone would submit to that test. It seems only done to tell the Bene Gesserit something. It doesn’t help or change the person taking the test and the test is awful for them. There is no benefit to the test taker. Especially a male one (I suppose it might say a female is ready to become a Reverend Mother but there was no such promise for Paul…they thought it impossible).
IME there are people in this world who move from one physical sensation to the next, with very little greater aspiration than their own comfort and gain. Weirdly, they tend to go pretty far in the corporate and political worlds, especially if they start out in sales/fundraising. And they tend to fail spectacularly - causing enormous amounts of misery for others - if they manage to get to the highest levels where actual leadership/governance is expected of them. One of those would probably fail the test.
It always made perfect sense to me. Think of Clinton and his cigar. The ability to apply control of the mind over even the most screaming desire of the body - it can make all the difference for a ruler.
Specifically that the discussion before was that we don’t care that he’s psychotic; the question is if we can control him. Afterwards answers given: he cares about humiliation and honor (I think) and we can control him. Plus his bloodline with a girl is now secured as requested. Not testing for great leadership skills.
There is definitely no hint of that in the Villeneuve film. He has the gom jabbbar at his throat from the start.
That doesn’t seem the case to me. IMO it doesn’t seem too different to any number of objectively awful things people voluntarily submit themselves to for reasons of advancement and prestige: special forces training, the bar exam, being a junior doctor, climbing mount Everest, etc. etc. That’s why I think the hypothetical as it’s laid out in the film, without self-selection is more interesting.
The Bene Gesserit test for humanity is testing for sapience. That is, a specimen must have awareness of its self beyond its immediate sensations and reactions. They apply this test because before the Butlerian Jihad, machines would do the thinking for the so-called humans, who were thus reduced to being pets. The B.G. do not want their genetic projects to be diluted by those genes. The test is given to all who contribute their genes.
Although the genetics is why they administer the test, the B.G. are always looking to gather information. Even when applying the test or collecting genes.
Paul was under control of the Voice and and threat of the gom jabbar. The only way he was going to walk out of that room was as a human. The Bene Gesserit put their long-term goals above all else, and they had enough impunity to get away with it.
I don’t think it’s a test that most participants fail. Of course, by our moral standards, an involuntary test that kills even a few is still monstrous.
(As a reminder, there are no “good guys” in Dune.)
That’s what they think they are doing. But is there actually any evidence people who don’t react to intense pain by pulling their hand away actually have “awareness of its self beyond its immediate sensations and reactions” rather than just having a high pain tolerance?
I realize I am over thinking this one but what’s the dope for if not over thinking sci fi scenarios;)
So I as I recall (based on my decades old reading of the book) the woman of the Bene Geserrit were routinely given the test and usually passed. The men of their breeding program were only rarely given the test and usually failed.
I’d say it probably works as advertised. Under all their mystical trapping, the Gesserit are scientists, so I’d assume that they’ve got double blind studies and what-have-you that demonstrate that their techniques actually work. And they did successfully breed a super-human, even if they lost control of the program right at the end, which also suggests they mostly know what they’re doing.
You’re right that, on its own, the test would just be measuring pain tolerance, and that’s not really correlated with being a “superior” human, but the gom jabbar is also only administered as part of a life time of constant testing and measuring. I think it’s probably safe to assume that, by the time someone is being administered that particular test, other tests have already ruled out conflating factors, like a simple high-pain tolerance, or mental illnesses that would make someone indifferent to their own pain.
In the book, it is the Baron who has Feyd do non-immediately-pleasurable things, like strangle his entire pleasure harem, to prove he is on board (and also as punishment). As for the consequences had he refused, you could call it a gom jabbar, sure; I doubt the Baron would have even bothered to have him tortured.
The BG separately do their own work on him, of course, since he is too dangerous not to have under control.
Yeah, I don’t remember. It’s been years since I’ve read past “Dune” itself. Any help confirming or refuting my recollection is much appreciated.
My understanding is that the Bene Gesserit are experts at testing and gathering without their subjects knowing and/or remembering about it. For example, Feyd Rautha didn’t remember his encounter with Lady Fenring.
Perhaps the B.G. only test when absolutely necessary, but it seems a waste of resources to produce a child only to discover later the sperm donor is not human.
As I mention above (based on a decades old memory of reading the book, it was my favourite as a teenager. I once wrote a secondary school project where you had to compare two books, comparing Dune and Lord of the Rings), my memory is the Bene Gessrit routinely used the test on female members of their order (who usually passed) but only very rarely gave it to the male members of their breeding program (Paul’s test wasn’t completely unique but it was very rare, and his passing it even rarer).
Yes, that may be, although their focus on bloodlines makes me want to think otherwise. But on the other hand, testing for humanity gives them a fig leaf of cover against being rapists: “he wanted it and we proved he has the capacity to control his instincts”.