But they also have an intense interest in training, and in culture.
I really, really don’t think that’s even a remote consideration in the setting. Slavery, feudalism, assassination, forced population movement - rape-by-being-supernaturally-seductive hardly gets a look-in.
Now, it seems to me that a real human, someone who can anticipate and plan for situations beyond their present moment, would find out about the test beforehand, and arrange to not take it, or to sabotage it in one way or another.
This is a seriously weird take on in. There are plenty of things that don’t stand up well in Dune in retrospect (the eugenics, orientalism, and the white savior motif), but I’ve never thought “oh yeah those Bene Gesserits are rapists” because they use their powers of seduction to have sex with powerful entitled adult men.
Paul had no idea what he was walking in to so he could not want to submit to test to get some cool status.
I do not think so. The Voice was used to get him to cross the room but he had to do the test without compulsion.
And I do not think the Reverend Mother would have gotten away with killing Paul. His dad is one of the most powerful people in the galaxy and Paul is his only son and he loves him dearly. How would that conversation go?
RM: Paul’s dead.
Duke: Why?
RM: He refused to put his hand in the box so I killed him.
Duke: What was in the box?
RM: Pain.
Duke: So you killed him because he would not suffer pain because you said so?
RM: Yes.
Duke: Ok, have a nice trip home!
I’m perplexed by this comment. Do you expect dystopiam stories to not have unpleasant things?
Creating conditions in which a subject lacks the capacity to refuse sex is rape.
Hence me saying “Paul was under control of the Voice and the threat of the gom jabbar”.
You mean the Reverend Mother who was the Truthsayer for the Emperor himself? She had enough impunity to kill Paul if he failed the test.
The Orientalism and the white savior motif are part of the book, not the society. I mean its basically “Laurence of Arabia in Space”, its still an awesome book, and film, but absolutely its an example of a patronizing post-colonial attitude towards middle eastern culture.
The eugenics is a bit problematic IMO, as while (as you point out) it doesn’t make any claims for the morality of Bene Geserit or anyone else, the selective breeding of humans does in fact succeed in creating a super human being (not just loads of inbred royal brats). That’s a bit dodgy and doesn’t reflect well on the book in retrospect IMO.
Creating conditions in which a subject lacks the capacity to refuse sex is rape.
Nothing in the book or the film (the first Villneuve one or the Lynch one, I’ve not seen Dune 2) indicates anything remotely like this happened, its a really weird stretch to claim it does.
She absolutely would. That’s made absolutely clear in the book IIRC, Its implied in the film by the fact Jessica protects the door. She knows what could be about to happen to her son and she is protecting the RM while she does it. Excellent bit of translating the book into film (of which there is a lot in the Villneuve version) IMO. You could have had clunky exposition explaining it but the image of Jessica still protecting the door while obviously horrifically distressed says that in a much more compelling way than exposition ever could.
Well, partly. Perhaps even more of the culture was cribbed from Caucasian Muslims fighting the Russian Empire, also with all the desert stuff we cannot forget about African desert peoples like the Tuareg.
Jazzica looked into Pall’s eyes, smiled, said “I’ll be back soon. Do your best. It’s extremely important you pass this test - both to me, and to your father. And to your future, Pall. And…possibly…to the future of the…human race. But don’t feel pressured.”
-National Lampoon’s Doon
ETA: No sweat, if he really is the Kumkwat Haagendasz.
Out of curiosity, do we know that the Bene Gesserit actually carry through with their threat? Not that they’re widely known for their kindness, but the test only requires that the victim believe that they’ll be killed if they remove their hand. Failing the test means the person is no longer of any interest to the Bene Gesserit, so maybe they don’t bother actually killing them.
The analogy with an animal gnawing off its leg is also confusing to me. Isn’t that a case where the animal overcame pain to ensure its own survival–exactly what the gom jabbar is intended to test? The subject of a gom jabbar is meant to think that their hand is being destroyed, but they are expected to weigh that against the threat of certain death. The animal in the analogy effectively does the same, though.
I’m a big fan of the books, having actually read most of the prequels (not Paul of Dune) and the sequels, so my interpretation may vary from that of movie version, so be warned.
IMHO, a bit of the problem comes from seeing the Bene Gesserit as either primarily social scientists, eugenicists, or seekers of true perfection of humanity. They are all of these things, or individuals are, but more, for all their disgust with and manipulation of religion, they are true believers.
They have evidence, in their own persons, of the ability to connect the past to the present, and wish to extend that to the future more clearly, while at the same time opening the history of the missing half of humanity via creating a male version of themselves.
So, again, it’s, at it’s core, not a vision that is fully rational, it’s a belief, a fervor, a drive which most if not all BG willingly sacrifice their own personal happiness and choices for for untold generations. And remember, especially if you’re a Reverend Mother, you REMEMBER all those sacrifices! Talk about self-reinforcing.
Which is why they absolutely test their own far more frequently than others. Almost no males are ever tested, because males are almost always seed carriers in the POV of the BG, not members, and lack the training and discipline to have the degree of self-control they require. Non-humans, to use the language of the test, may not further their goals, but their children, grandchildren, et al MAY.
So their is zero need to test most of those they seduce, bribe, or blackmail into donating.
So back to the question of what kind of people would be selected for IRL: fanatics and matyrs. IRL, if you test all those who follow your philosophy to chose death or mutilation before failure to abide by a directive, that’s the result. And, to some degree, it works. Add a religious motif to your duties, or a shared sense of shame, exclusivity, or the like, and you can create a (generally Very small) number of unthinking zealots who can be counted on to do anything in service of the group.
But I’m not sure they’re “more” human in the IRL sense, or more likely, less.
In the quite dystopian world of Dune, they cull their own quite harshly in all the societies we experience (Imperial House, Landsraad, BG, Guild, Fremen, etc). So to kill their own, much less others, is the norm. But for a less dystopian view, it isn’t all that different than Starfleets Kobyashi Maru scenario. Force a conflict on a human, between differing drives, and judge the results.
Did Frank Herbert say that? I’ve always taken for granted it’s inspired by Laurence of Arabia, with Araakis being Arabia, Fremen being Bedouins, the Empire being the Ottomans, and Spice being Oil. It’s not a lazy 1:1 allegory (it’s not Firefly 
) but that was always the main influence to me.
Because, Dr.Strangelove, that’s only half the analogy. The BG claim that a human, rather than saving itself, will stay in the trap in order to try and slay the trapper and remove a threat to the species. Another comparison, from the same era, would be Starship Troopers, where in order to become a full voting citizen, you had to put your own life at risk for the greater good. They thought that was a more uniquely higher human behavior in the 1960’s.
Maybe so, but that doesn’t seem to be what the gom jabbar is actually testing. It’s depicted as a pure test of human willpower, of temporary pain vs. death. Nowhere in the BG description or application of the test does a “you serve a cause greater than yourself” aspect come up. Paul isn’t thinking about saving the species when he repeats his mantra–he’s just trying to get through the pain of that moment. Maybe the BG should have put the needle against Jessica’s neck to see what happens.
…one that they control.
Originally, I think the desire was to create an equal, to solve the equation as it were. As far as modern BG are considered, oh hell yes, they, like many believers, feel that only they understand how things should be, and intend to make sure God is/stays in their own image.
See the modern version of Christian Nationalism as a case in point.
Which seems to ignore the reality: why create something that can see a future you’re incapable of, and then ignore it when it tells you that YOUR VERSION DOESN’T WORK.
Jessica is a Bene Gesserit and is torn in her duties. I doubt the Duke would just roll over and accept Paul being killed.
I suspect Jessica knows the Bene Gesserit need to know if Paul is the Kwisatz Haderach. Jessica needs the Bene Gesserit on her (or mainly Paul’s) side. She has to let the Reverend Mother do this test. It is a door that needs to be walked through from Jessica’s perspective but I doubt it is one the Duke would share (and he doesn’t know the half of it but suspects something is afoot).
Indeed, in the movie (at least, been a long time since I read the books), Leto asks Jessica if she would protect Paul. She says absolutely, with her life. Leto says he is not asking Paul’s mother but asking the Bene Gesserit that she is. She doesn’t have a quick answer to that. As you say, what is not said says a lot.
I think that was always the Bene Gesserit plan. They wanted the Kwisatz Haderach under their sway. Jessica screwed things up for them (not intentionally and seemingly in a small way but it turned out to be in a very big way).
I have not heard what, if anything, he said on the matter, but quite a few lines in the book were copied more or less verbatim from The Sabres of Paradise, as well as a lot of vocabulary (sietch, kindjal, kanly, Chakobsa, Padishah, etc.) so there is no doubt at all that that was a big source and inspiration.
Does not mean it was not also inspired by the Arabs fighting the Ottoman empire.
Did you get that his own mother was standing guard outside to ensure that the test occurred uninterrupted - with her life? Mohiam is not some random test-giver. What makes you think the Emperor’s personal Truthsayer, a powerful figure in an Empire-wide organization, would not get away with it? They clearly have before.