I am a bit confused by the “if only the father is a Jew, then the children are not jewish” thing. If you Mother was not Jewish, but your Father raised you up with all the observances, and you had a Bar mitza, did schul, prayed at the temple, etc, you still would not be considered Jewish by some?
Fair enough. I’ll conceed that point. But only because there is still a net benefit to the needy.
I appreciate your suggestions and thoughts on the matter but it looks like I’m going to have to find my own way to do this. By doing some of the above ( traditional Sabbaths, keeping kosher, religious education) while not believing in it myself, I’d only be teaching the kids how to be hypocrites. Not a desireable goal in the least.
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Danielinthewolvesden:
Check out my earliest post in this thread. If that doesn’t answer your question, I don’t know what will.
QuickSilver:
I agree with you that it would be hypocricy. So perhaps the first thing to do is ask yourself, “Why is it important to me to raise my child ‘Jewish’? What does ‘Judaism’ mean to me?” Sure, to many others, including myself, it means following the Torah’s commandments because I believe that they are the word of G-d, delivered to my ancestors. That’s why it’s important to me to live my life that way, and to raise my children that way. But if you don’t believe that, then you need to come up with your own reasons, and then, once you know your reasons, you can tailor your children’s Jewish education (with or without the help of your friends on this message board) to satisfy those reasons.
Chaim Mattis Keller
CMK: maybe I’m brain dead or something, but no, it does not really answer my question. Please explain slowly, in wordsa goy can understand.
and will do this much better.
In the meantime, it is not always easy to prove who the Father of the child is. There is no question who the Mother is.
And DNA is very, very recent and not yet a part of interpretations.
Please note that, beginning tonight (Thursday June 8) and continuing for the next two days is a Jewish holiday, Shavuout, traditionally commemorating the epiphany at Sinai. It is a holiday mentioned in the Torah text as one of the three annual holidays.
Thus, unless they have time today, CMKeller and Zev and the other observant Jews will probably not be on the boards until Sunday June 11.
CKDextHavn:
Well, I certainly have time today. And after today, I, at least, won’t be back Sunday…I’ll be back Monday. I do this from work.
Danielinthewolvesden:
Okay, I’ll try to be clearer, if possible. Allow me to re-state your question in the simplest terms, and if I’m getting that wrong, then clearly, that’s my problem.
Your question was: If one’s father raised him and instructed him in Jewish observances, and involved him in Jewish religious ceremonies, and he kept all the Jewish commandments, why would the fact that your mother was not Jewish make people consider you not Jewish? If you practice Jewish, and you believe Jewish, why does your mother’s descent make a difference?
My answer is: According to Jewish belief, if your mother is not Jewish (and you never converted), you were never obligated to perform any Jewish commandments or rituals. If you do so, then what you did was follow the Torah as an option, not as an obligation. Orthodox Jews define a Jew as one who bears this obligation.
Hope this comes across better than my first post did.
Chaim Mattis Keller
What, then, constitutes “conversion”?
And I know I am going to offend a few, but please don’t get offended, I am posting this next out of the ironical situation that just hit me. Picture one of the Concentration Camps in nazi Germany, in the beginning. A very Othodox Jew is looking at his neighbor, who’s father is Jewish, but his mother is not. He says “YOU don’t belong here!”
Danielinthewolvesden:
Well, amongst the Orthodox Jews, it requires acceptance of the obligation to observe the Torah, immersion in a ritual bath (“Mikvah”), and, for males, circumcision (if the guy was already circumcised, a symbolic drop of blood from that organ is released by, forgive the pun, pricking it with a pin).
The key word in the above paragraph is obligation, as in my prior posts. Once someone has formally accepted these obligations, he is as obligated as any Jew-from-birth.
All I can say is that anyone who would say that is a total jackass. According to Orthodox Jewish belief, anyone who suffers due to an association with Judaism is considered a holy martyr just as much as someone who suffers because he actually is a Jew.
Chaim Mattis Keller
Thanks, CMK; So in my example, the guy would probably go thru “conversion” if he was Orthodox, and would not feel a need to if Conservative or Reform. So, really, he would be a Jew. Perhaps if he did not go thru the entire ceremory if he was Conservative, some of the Orthodox would say he is not Jewish, but he prob would not care. (I did hear one Orthodox Jewish lady, say, perhaps in jest “What do we call the Reform? We call them Christians”).
And I sincerely doubt that any truly Observant Jew would make that camp remark. But in Judaism, as in Christianity, there are those who follow the outward trappings without the belief in their hearts.
Would you fellows like to explain a bit about your Holiday you just had? I know it is a harvest festival, celebrated 50 days after Passover (after the 2nd day), that it is mentioned in Lev23:15+, and it is roughly similar to the Christian Pentecost, but beyond that I am stumped. Why is it not on any of my calendars, for example?
First, Chag Sameach. One of the reasons I am eager to leave my parents’ house is so that I can go back to practicing Judaism.
Shavuot, or Shavuos, depending on your pronunciation, is the festival commemorating the giving of the Torah. Shavuot means “weeks” in Hebrew, because it takes place five weeks after Pesach (someone help me out here!) - which is why it is sometimes called Pentecost. The Megillat Rut, the Book of Ruth, is traditionally read at services. Additionally, people stay awake all night and learn Torah. If you happen to be in Jerusalem on Shavuot, it is a stunning sight to watch the crowds of people make their way to the Kotel, the Western Wall, just before sunrise. Here you will see one of the biggest problems in Israel live. Every year, a group of Reform and Conservative Jews hold an egalitarian service in which women participate in the reading of the megillah. And every year, haredim harrass and sometimes physically attack them. Last year, I happened to be a participant in that minyan, and it was probably the most frightening thing that happened to me in eleven months in Israel. We were surrounded by the police and barricades, but the behavior of the so-called pious was heartbreaking. Fortunately, no one was physically injured.
That was kind of a hijack. I’m sorry. I’m sure that someone else could describe the significance of Shavuot and the Megillat Rut better than I, so I will not even attempt.
By the way, my father is Jewish and my mother is not (although Ashkenazi Jew makes up the “largest slice” of my ethnic “pie”, if you know what I mean). Both of my parents are atheists, and I was raised that way. In fact, my great grandparents were Russian atheist communists, and by the time my dad came around, no one in the family had any semblance of religious knowledge whatsoever, and were Jewish only culturally - his family celebrated NO holidays that had anything to do with ANY religion. Probably as a result of this, I’ve been interested in religion since I was in junior high, and knew I wanted to go to Israel for that reason since high school. After I started college, various events and people taught me about what it means to be Jewish, something I was not raised with. I presently affiliate with the Reform movement, because they accept patrilineal descent, but intend to convert Conservative at some point. While certain movements may not accept me as a Jew, I have a number of Conservative and Orthodox friends who do, no questions asked. And that’s more important to me, anyway.
Od pa’am, chag sameach l’culam.
Kyla, you underestimate yourself. You’re clearly knowledgeable enough about Shavuot, and I’m sure you know something of the reasons why we read Ruth on that day. But, for the record, here are some reasons:
[ul][li]Ruth was a well-known righteous convert. On Shavuot, when the Jewish people received the Torah, all Israelites became, in effect, converts.[/li][li]Ruth was an ancestress of King David, who, according to tradition, died on Shavuot.[/li][li]The main portions of the story of Ruth take place at the time of the barley harvest, which is around the time of Shavuot[/li][li]Ruth takes advantage of the gifts to the poor that all Jewish farmers are commanded to leave in their fields. (one source for) this commandment is found in the same portion of the Torah that describes Shavuot (Leviticus 23:15-22).[/ul][/li]
Also, a correction:
Close. There is a commandment in the Torah (see the verses cited above) to count seven weeks from the second day of Passover. The day after that count is completed, day # 50, is Shavuot…hence Pentecost, not from 5, but from 50.
Chaim Mattis Keller
Also, the association of Shavuot with the epiphany at Mount Sinai is a later association. The Torah itself does not mention the connection between the Festival of Weeks (Seven Weeks times seven days, it’s a mystic number) and the giving of the Torah. The Torah itself only accounts for Shavuot as one of the three harvest festivals.
As one who converted under the auspices of a Conservative rabbi, I can say that most Conservative rabbis would also feel that a formal conversion was called for; someone raised in a Conservative shul would undoubtedly recognize the necessity as well, whether they chose to act on it or not. Only the Reform (and perhaps the Reconstructionist) movement recognizes patrilineal descent. The person in your example might be a Jew in the eyes of the Reform movement (and possibly his own), but not those of the Conservative or Othodox movements. The key distinction, as Chaim has pointed out, is that the Conservative and Orthodox movements regard obeying the commandments as an obligation for all Jews, both those born Jewish according to Jewish law and those who willingly accept that obligation for themselves. The person in your example fits neither criteria, and thus, having never accepted that obligation, is not Jewish. The Reform movement regards Jewish law as “having a vote, not a veto”; it informs the actions of Reform Jews, but they are not (and here’s that word again) obligated to follow it; carried to its logical conclusion, this means they aren’t obligated to respect Jewish law and tradition regarding the definition of who’s Jewish.
Of course, there isn’t any central registry of who’s Jewish and who isn’t, so if the guy in your example did nothing to call attention to the fact that his mother wasn’t Jewish, he’d probably encounter no problems until he decided to make aliyah (emigrate to Israel). In that event, his status might be examined closely enough to require proof, and the Israeli religious courts that oversee such issues would undoubtedly require a conversion under the auspices of an Orthodox rabbi, with an Orthodox bet din.
FWIW, the difference between a Conservative and an Orthodox conversion is basically which movement the rabbis involved are affiliated with; mine involved about eighteen months of study, the last fifteen studying directly with a rabbi, a mikvah and the hatafat dam brit (thankfully, I was circumcised at birth), along with a bet din of three Conservative rabbis. Orthodox rabbis will tend to be somewhat stricter in the standards of observance expected of the ger (prospective convert).
The Law of Return is purposely intended to be a reverse of the Nuremberg Laws - anyone with one Jewish grandparent can make aliyah. So the guy in question probably could make aliyah. However, he would not be considered as Jewish - his identity card would refer to him as a gentile. Additionally, if someone converts to Reform or Conservative Judaism outside of Israel, they are allowed to make aliyah as a Jew. However, if someone converts to one of those movements IN Israel, they will NOT be considered Jewish. As most Israelis are secular, they don’t really care a lot in most situations, but this can be a problem when one is getting married, as Orthodox rabbis will generally refuse to wed someone who has converted Reform or Conservative. If you really really really don’t want to convert Orthodox, something a number of people do is go to Cyprus and get married there - international treaty requires that Israel recognize those marriages.