Sorry; what myth am I defending? I am agreeing that Strads and other Top violins, new and old, belong in a “bestest” group but that’s about all that can be said. Strads are over-hyped and over-priced relative to other Top violins due to effective marketing. So it goes.
I am also saying that blind tests are silly. I cite responsiveness as one quality that renders them silly. Defending Rothko to folks who have “decided” that modern art/color fields are stoopid makes no sense either.
Do you play an instrument? Because your comment dismissing responsiveness is incorrect - I’d be surprised to hear a musician say it. Look, in addition to my Martin, I have a Taylor GS-Mini. $450. Great little guitar. And, because “your sound is in your hands,” I sound pretty much the same on both. But that’s because once I stretch my playing on the Martin, I can play better on all my guitars, including the GS-Mini.
So if I play in front of an audience, I bring the learning I acquired on the excellent guitars. But I often play guitars better suited to gigs. It’s pretty standard.
If I played a Strad it would not sound as good as anyone who actually knows how to play the violin using the cheapest violin made. There is likely some contribution to the quality of the finest fiddles from those likely to be playing one.
Responsiveness does have some objective qualities, as mentioned by both WordMan and D18. WordMan said a responsive intrument makes it easy to play what a musician chooses (among other things); D18 mentioned a professional musician playing a garage-sale quality violin and the amount of energy involved. Something as simple as a straight neck makes an instrument more responsive. No one is saying a Stradivarius is more responsive than another top-quality instrument.
Other anecdote: 1950’s Les Pauls came with “PAF” pickups - nicknamed that for the Patent Applied For stickers on the brand-new “humbucker” pickups Gibson introduced in '57*. These pickups are known for having a “sizzle” - this little extra bit of noise in the tone - kinda sounds like an angry wasp; or an electric-sounding sizzle from a lab scene in a 1950’s monster movie. It is rarely captured in a recording or heard by live listeners (sorry Princhester), but as a player, if you focus on it, you realize you can vary it’s sound. And when you vary that sizzle, you end up sustaining notes better. Better feedback you can use = responsiveness.
And, like Strads, that is why PAF’s have been hyped over the top - selling for $5,000 or more, when excellent modern replicas can be had for less than $100 or maybe a few hundred bucks for a boutique replica. So it goes.
*Fun fact: the number listed for the patent being applied for on the sticker is actually for a vibrato tailpiece, IIRC, not the humbucker pickup design. Oh, Gibson.
OK, but why should I, or anybody, care about that? More people think probably wine is a superior beverage to beer; I think differently—I could never really get into fine wine, but I do appreciate a good beer. So, screw what more people think!
Well, we’re drifting from the OP here, but of course I’ve heard Jeff Beck and Miles Davis. You’re confusing the artist for the tool. A Stratocaster doesn’t have the response of a fine violin; neither does a trumpet. Now whether Jeff Beck has the expressiveness of Hillary Hahn or Miles Davis of Anne-Sophie Mutter is unanswerable. Cellos I covered in my post as one of the four bowed instruments.
Bumbershoot, thank you for pointing out Edgar Meyer! Being much more familiar with classical music than jazz, I drifted to this clip. The cello suites are hard enough to play on the original instrument. To do it on the double bass - wow.
The only point I am trying to make by referencing Beck and Miles is that their phrasing is vocal in nature. Whether a Strat is as responsive as a Strad is a separate discussion; when Beck plays *A Day in the Life *or *Nessun Dorma *on his guitar, it sounds like vocals.
Edgar Meyer is amazing. His work with Mark O’Connor and Yo Yo Ma on CD’s like the Appalachia Waltz is amazing.
Alright, in the spirit of overcoming ignorance, I checked out two versions of Beck doing Nessun Dorma. This here and that there. Dude, these are examples of the limitations of the electric guitar rather than examples of its potential! You really think that sounds like the human voice? Now, I’m not trashing Beck’s entire output here, but that doesn’t put his considerable talents in the best light. Or sound.
Since the topic is violins, and since you’re the one who raised the whole responsiveness issue, compare this or or this.
Most of your post is folksy irrelevant word salad.
The OP is about Strads and whether modern instruments can be made that sound as good. The answer is they can, and that there are no unique qualities to Strads.
In this context you raise “responsiveness”. Either your comment has some relevance to this OP or it does not. If it does not then fine.
If it does (and let’s face it, you raise it because you think it does) then what does it matter if Strads are more “responsive” to the musician, if the listener can’t tell the difference?
Your proposition is that blind tests are silly but you are yet to make that proposition good in this context.
It does occur to me that if I’m a musician tossing up between an expensive Strad and a cheaper very good modern instrument, and I care what my audience will hear, the point might be important.
But maybe none of us need to care. The OP is just an idle question. I’m doubting **Bricker **really needs to know the answer to his question at all. It’s just interesting to learn that the purported objective preference for the sound of Strads is actually just historical mystique, not a quality of the fabric of the instrument.
Way to miss the point: the responsiveness enables the musician to figure out better technique. The audiences hears that, regardless of which instrument the artist plays going forward. But that instrument is the one that “taught” him/her.
ETA: oh and “irrelevant word salad”? Bandname! If others share you POV, they are welcome to say so. D18 is attempting to engage. You are raging against some such, when the fundamental point that the assertion “Strads are UNIQUELY BETTER/THE BEST” is marketing hype, at best, not worth the time to test.
D18 - got it; let me check your stuff out. Thanks.
Princhester, responsiveness is an incredibly important attribute of a musical instrument. I don’t share Wordman’s mystical take on it (but what musician doesn’t get mystical now and then!), but common sense tells you that anyone will want a tool that does what you want it to at any given moment. The audience may not be able to discern whether a given musical instrument is more responsive than any other, but if a musician can perform optimally on their instrument, it’s going to be a better performance than if they can’t.
Now, interestingly enough, the second of the PNAS papers didn’t speak of “responsiveness” per se, but they did measure playability, articulation, and projection, and surprise, surprise, the modern violins did better.
And I don’t want to nitpick, but while the modern violins in this study are objectively cheaper than the Strads, they probably still cost in the 10s of thousands of dollars.
Again, thanks for sharing. The first violinist was a bit too high drama in her approach, but man that second one was great! Never heard of that violinist, Susan Keser, but I will have to check her stuff out. Thanks!
So: clearly you don’t think that Beck’s version is part of the same conversation, clearly. We’ll choose to disagree. Violins have a clearer tone and if you don’t like an overdriven sound as the base of the tone, it’s a non-starter.
Oh I see so one plays one’s Strad at home while practicing and its responsiveness makes one play better when you play another instrument on stage later! OK then, now I understand. Funny, I’m sure I’ve been to and heard concerts where it is proudly announced that the soloist will be playing a 1723 (or whatever) Stradivarius as if this was important.
I thought Strads were celebrated concert instruments because they sounded better but actually Strads are just celebrated for their use as practice instruments. Weird. I learn a new thing every day.
When one has discussions with those who believe in ESP or ghosts or Monster cables first they tell you they have solid evidence. When that doesn’t work they tell you the phenomena are not objectively measurable for various obscure reasons. Not that I’m implying anything, of course.
Before blind testing was done people said that Strads sounded better. And then we learned through blind testing that they couldn’t tell. And now we are told Strads don’t sound better but the performance would be better, due to some quasi-mystical “responsiveness” factor.
You have evidence for this, right? Because while I don’t want to sound overly sceptical, this whole subject has form, if you know what I mean.
Reading this thread, I started remembering people who would swear by vinyl records or film cameras*. And it all became clear: #49 Vintage | Stuff White People Like
*Outside very specialized fields where they may be worth it.
Okay, last post. You seem set on picking a fight and not being part of a discussion.
Some artists tour with their pricey/best instruments, and feature them, yes. They are using them for marketing at that point - cool. Some don’t, to protect them. Some change their minds - Billy Gibbons toured with his '59 Les Paul for decades, then stopped. So?
And because I reject sound tests of subjective quality, and state that responsiveness matters, I’m in woo-land? Look, sorry if I got folksy about it - at it’s most simple, responsiveness just means good feedback. You do believe that a tool which provides better feedback is a better tool?
MichaelEmouse thanks for the drive by. 95% of everything is crap, so, no surprise, people “love vintage” for a lot of stupid reasons. Sorry. And yes, because of hype, Strads are positioned as Teh BESTEST! and so folks come up with tests to try to prove/disprove what is a silly, marketing statement at its essence, not some statement of objective fact that is True in any scientific way.
The good news is that there are a few good reasons to enjoy playing an old instrument. That doesn’t mean anyone should state they are Teh BESTEST! and dare anyone to compare them in a sound test vs new instruments; that is silly in both directions. But it can mean an old guitar can be a great guitar, and if you like that old-wood sound, cool.
