What makes someone a Christian?

Great Debates
181

I don’t know what religion you are, but if you believe in a religion that says “this is how the world works, and this is how people should behave, and anyone who doesn’t is going to hell”, then I don’t see how you could not want your friends and family and people you care about to become member of your religion.

If, on the other hand, your religion says “look inside to find peace, don’t worry there is no hell, take it easy” then I can see why there is no reason for you to desire to convert anyone to your religion.

But, for people who do believe in the former type of religion, the desire to convert people you care about is logical. They may be wrong about their beliefs, but once those beliefs are accepted by that person, it doesn’t make sense to allow people you care about to go to hell.

182

Let me clarify. I meant that many Christians think their religion is the right one as opposed to any other religion that is the wrong one to practice. I would also say that some people practice a religion more from custom and habit rather than sincere belief.

Two points. One, it’s disrespectful. To blatantly ignore someone’s sense of identity and instead, categorize them as something else, something they find rude or very inappropriate is incredibly rude. For example, if I were to inform you that you’re really homosexual and you simply haven’t been with the right man (or woman) yet, wouldn’t you find that rude?

Two, it’s a matter of professional interest for me. I’m a cultural anthropologist by training. In the course of my research, properly understanding and categorizing human belief and motivation is part of my work. By ignoring the way people self-identify and putting them into categories I feel is appropriate instead of how they identify themselves is poor research.

183

Perhaps. I’ll let RW answer it himself.

That definition of christian is so watered down to as to be meaningless.

I do mind being called a Christian, which is why I raised this point. I’m sure the Dopers of other religions persausions would also object, our Jewish, Moslem, Wiccan and Hindu Dopers would probably agree. The adjective christian has a specific meaning, not some watered down “feel good” term that RW seems to imply with it. And I would respectfully request he stop applying it to people who do not wish to be associated with the term.

184

Using the OP’s system, Option 2 sounded to me like the right kind of definition, just not exactly the best one. Option 3 includes Christians, but not distinctly. It also includes Zoroastrians & Muslims. Option 2 is not perfect, but it’s in the vein of how I define the term.

Anthropologically, Christianity is definable as a religious tradition, like Judaism or Taoism. It’s unnecessary to exclude bad Christians from the set of Christians, & I don’t care to define the term by anything relying on a dubious theological reality. That sort of thing leads toward nasty comments about members of other sects.

So I’m defining the term anthropologically, as I one would define “Buddhist,” “Jew,” “Marxist,” or “Utilitarian,” without having to believe in any such thing.

My working definition is roughly as follows:

**The set of Christians comprises those who believe that Jesus of Nazareth was the Christ (Messiah), & that this is meaningful to them personally; & who define membership in his church &/or adherence to his teachings as their primary religious identity.

One may speak more strictly of practicing Christians, who maintain membership in some form of the Church, participate in the Church’s sacraments, & try seriously to live by what they understand to be a Christian morality.

One may speak more loosely of cultural Christians, who come from traditionally Christian societies & are informed by the cultures & mores of such societies.**

That pretty much sums it up.

And yes, some Christians do believe in killing people. Maybe their understanding of Jesus’s teaching is imperfect, but for the purposes of a descriptive definition, they are still Christians.

185

So if a person says they are a chicken it would be rude of me to contradict them?
I kid
You make a valid point but there are things to consider. One would be the motivation and intent of the person who you’re talking to. Are they purposely trying to hurt or aggravate? Was it meant as a compliment or insult or merely {as in this thread} their own opinion which wasn’t being forced on anybody. I don’t think it’s rude of someone on this forum to assert their personnel belief, especially when they respect others right to do same.

I think it says something about the stength of identity of the individual if they get too upset about someone elses harmless and benevolant opinion.

186

Man I laughed out loud on that one. The very essence of what Jesus taught is too watered down and meaningless. Good one.

Sigh!! This thread is about what people THINK makes someone a Christian. I thought the forum was about people expressing and respecting opinions. If I say Christians are hypocrites , or Christians think they’re better than other people, I might offend some Christians. In this forum I might be required to support or explain my opinion , but I shouldn’t have to defend my right to have it.
So…in my opinion, when you ask someone to stop expressing their opinion about what makes someone a Christian in a forum that poses that exact question, it kinda defeats the purpose.

187

I consider that a very well thought out and accurate definition. Thanks for posting.

188

But what else do I have to go on? Should I demand they speak in tongues or handle serpents to prove it? As an outsider to the religion what criteria should I use to determine if someone claiming to be Christian is Christian or not? Since the Christians here can’t decide who’s in the club then I certainly can’t. If you claim to be Wiccan or a follower of the ULC or a Maltheist then I’ll give you the same benefit of the doubt.
If you play the game of changing you religion every few minutes I’d just think you’re a liar. Although I’d still recognize you by your currently chosen label.

Until you start handing out membership cards I have nothing else to go on.

189

Cosmosdan

RE: spiritual filth.

I use that only to describe hatred ascribed by the speaker to the will of God. While I will refute hatred on it’s own, as a failing of man, when it is claimed to be the Will of my Savior, I become very angry.

Your beliefs, your faith, I place outside my authority for judgement. Your actions I judge by the values of our society. My own actions I try to judge by the example of my Lord. If we differ in our understanding of good, or evil, then I am likely to decline to join you in your actions, but not likely to try to compel you to be in accord with mine. I might try to convince you, though.

I might well act to prevent your accomplishing evil, if I felt it would be to the detriment of another person. I stand before our society to be judged for that act.

Tris

190

That is indeed a good working definition, Foolsguinea. It even allows for renegades like myself. :slight_smile:

191

So, by simply asking another Doper to stop making broad statements which associate me with a particular religious group, a group that I find is the antithesis of my own beliefs means I have pschologicial problems? Dr. Cosmodan, I don’t know where you got your degree, but please stop attempting to give me therapy thru the 'Net. If I think I need a therapist, I’ll find one on my own.

192

Actually that particular comment wasn’t directed at you. In reconsidering I believe I should have refrained form making a personnel comment of that nature about anybody. I will do so in the future.

It seemed to me that RW was getting jumped on in a fairly irrational manner. He was repeatedly called rude simply for voiceing his opinion. It seemed ludicrious considering the subject of this thread.
I stand by this previous statement.

193

I know that this is way out on the edge, for a lot of people. It is the doctrine of despising the sin of hatred, but not succumbing to the same sin because of it. Phelps hates a lot of folks. He hates me, though he does not know me. I find that to be a lot worse than reprehensible. I find it to be the quintessence of evil, because he ascribes his own hatreds to my Lord, and leads others to join him in that hate, and in the belief that Phelps’ hatred is the hatred of God. I want to hate him. I really want to hate him. He is my enemy.

But the Lord, Jesus says to love my enemy. And I say, “Well, yeah, but, Lord, this guy is scum! Surely you didn’t mean even him?” And then I think of sins that I have committed. Things that have been described to me as blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, which my Lord himself said is the only sin beyond redemption. Christ does not love me because I deserve it. He loves me because His love is perfect. In many theological belief sets I am lost beyond salvation. I must rely on love, for no other thing is great enough to lift me from destruction. It is the very act of speaking the condemnation of another sinner that enrages me when Phelps does it. Shall I join him, or seek to join Christ?

[sub]Thanks. I try to be better than him, and scriptural prohibitions against worldly judgement aside, I find your approval gratifying. But let’s face it, you set the bar fairly low.[/sub]

Tris

“You must be the change you wish to see in the world.” ~ Mohandas K. Gandhi ~

194

It is hard to understand but I think the effort to understand and feel and act upon “love your enemy” is the only way.
We are all in need of forgiveness for something {or thngs} Returning hatred for hatred is self destructive. The Quakers have a cool way of looking at it. When someone hates and lashes out they feel bad becuase they see that person is injureing their own soul and damaging their own life. Those types of confrontations are difficult but it is an opportunity for us to look inside ourselves and grow.

195

I’ll trade you a “love your enemy” for a “know your enemy” any day.

See, I don’t “love” that pathetic maniac. He and his acts are one and the same. I feel sorry for someone who supposedly started out like the rest of us and was somewhere along the line influenced toward the blind hatred he embraces, but unless he’s drug-addled, he’s a fucker. I’m a firm believer in turning over a new leaf…I’ve seen it happen many times…but at present, I only feel disgust for him.

196

I certainly feel disgust for his every utterance. More, I feel rage. But I think that that is just more of the evil in which his philosophy is steeped, and the only way for me to “get it off me” is to meticulously avoid the sin he wallows in.

I deny any truth in the man. I oppose his beliefs, and find them to be the work of Satan. He appears to me to be a willing servant of evil. But the answer is still to try to love him, while being staunchly, and publicly opposed to his words and deeds.

I don’t want to take my turn as a servant to evil.

Tris

197

Well I don’t know who you’re speaking of specificly and haven’t read his posts. I think thats the greatest challenge is to try and find some compassion and forgiveness to those who seem the least deserving. I’m not claiming I’m good at it. Forgiveness doesn’t mean we have to toerate horrible behavior. How can you forgive somone who refuses to repent in any way. Remember Jesus and the money changers. He didn’t mind showing his anger.

198

I was referring to Phelps and his ilk. I don’t, and won’t forgive the terrible things he’s done unless I saw that he was a changed man. It would take a lot of “proofs” before I’d believe that. He’d have to live a very very long time. But like I said, I believe that people can change. I don’t give up completely…I just have no respect for him until I’m convinced to my satisfaction that he’s a changed man.

199

RE “loving one’s enemies” & all.

I don’t understand “loving” hateful people as in any way feeling affection or wishing them unqualified happiness, but in doing right by them. In Phelps’ case, “Christian love” would be in treating him as a fellow human being who holds reprehensable views- taking some effort to try to reason with him, and then dismissing him & going off to repair the damage he causes if he refuses to listen.

IMO, the most disgusting people are child molesters. I don’t thing execution is too extreme for them. That said, if I were in a situation where I had authority over such people, I am obliged to provide them with adequate shelter, nutrition, therepy & education- i.e. “loving” them, as a Christian I am obliged with letting them know God makes forgiveness & reconciliation available to them through Christ. Still, I am also obliged to keep them locked up until their sentence runs its course, and if their sentence involves, execution- to handle such execution in as respectful & humane way as possible.

200

I agree. Although I question the execution. Love might require that you don’t support of participate in that. I wonder about healing. Within love is the power to heal. Jesus asked us to see others as him or an extension of ourselves, as in one body. I wonder how love could heal extreme cases. I can’t imagine what goes on inside child molesters to move them to do such a henious thing. I have had similar feelings about drug dealers who recruit children to use and deal drugs.
I do agree we have an obligation to protect society.