The wonderful “actions speak louder than words” parable. This parable from Jesus raises the interesting point that all christians (as previously defined as a noun)do not always always act christian-like(adjective). In this context many atheists and agnostics may be far more christian-like than some christians. Undoubtedly many atheists and agnostics are far better people than some intolerant bible thumping type christians. Unforunately quality of character doesn’t necessarily define a christian within its official dictionary definition, but rather belief. As it is an extremely large and diverse group, christianity contains many types of people, some being more “christian like” than others.
As I contended in the “saved” thread, I personally hold that actions would be more important than simple “belief” or “level of Faith,” but to me this is a different debate better suited for another thread than here, as that isn’t what seems to make someone christian.
Sorry for the lack of clarity. I was asking about the definition(s) of “Christianity” and how they excluded the possibility of an atheist being a Christian.
Since you’ve posted some definitions of “atheism” let’s address them as well. The first and third do not preclude believing that the man named Jesus may have walked the earth, and that he was a great teacher. In the second, you must agree that many, if not all people who we would all agree are Christians, disbelieve some of the things that other Christians would call the “doctrines of Christianity”, so this definition isn’t very helpful.
An athiest can certainly believe that Jesus exists, but by definition if they do not believe that Jesus is the christ as described in the primary definition of christianity (as they can not because they do not believe in god or gods), then they are not christian.
In my opinion the definitions are quite clear, and it is your imposition of what you believe the doctrines of christianity to be that colors your view. We are not talking about doctrines of every faith within christianity, which we have already previously established as 2 different things. In the context of this definition there are some basic doctrines of christianity, which as clearly defined includes belief of God and Jesus as the Christ. A-theism is by its very definition the polar opposite of this. It is the disbelief in all religion including the doctrines of christianity
The word atheist was created to describe those that did not believe in christianity but words such as heathen had a negitive connotation. Simply put, the word atheist at its most basic level means “against religion” or “against theology” as they are not part of any religion. If you are not part of any religion, then you can not be a christian, as you can’t “not” be a christian and “be” a christian in the exact same context at the same time. There is no logical why one can be against something that is solely based on belief and be it at the same time.
Atheism is deliberately and definitively the polar opposite of theism, which includes christianity.
Someone that shares the Spirit that Jesus embodied is not, by their definition, a Christian. Unless of course they also say the magic words or jump through the specified hoops (varies by denomination).
So let me ask you a question:
What should we call someone that shares the Spirit of Christ, but does not wish to be tainted by the Dishonor brought to the name Christian by those that have co-opted the name Christian?
r~
I dunno. I ask myself that alot. There is no title for those who do not want to share in the less attractive traits of so-called Christianity, but still live by those values (and perhaps even desire to be a follower of Christ).
Not everyone is in the same place on their spiritual journey at any one time; the depths of understanding are plumbed slowly by followers, and some never obtain certain depths at all. I am fine with that–but I balk at the outright bigotry and intolerance espoused (toward gays for example) by the Catholic Church and some Prostestant religions. I don’t want to be associated with people like that.
So, do you throw the baby out with the bath water and denounce Christianity b/c of the small mindedness of some? There are those who would say: to do so means you lack faith in God/Jesus.
I am not so sure of that. Jesus was nothing if not an advocate for the disenfranchised and shunned in his culture. So, who is the “true” Christian? One who tries hard to love their fellow man and their God with all their heart and soul outside of established religion or the one who professes great love for the deity whilst supporting discrimination and rejecting those who don’t share their traditional values?
I wrestle with this daily. I have no answer. I have heard the argument to work and foster change from within–and also watched the stonewalling of even the simplest of changes.
Maybe it is our call to do our best, and let God dispose-maybe that is what faith truly is.
jeffh3000, As exhibit A, from American Heritage Dictionary I give you . . .
**religion ** 3. A set of beliefs, values, and practices based on the teachings of a spiritual leader. Nothing there about any god.
You say " . . it is your imposition of what you believe the doctrines of christianity to be that colors your view." I am taking a broader view of the “doctrines of christianity” as well as religion in general than you.
By the way, there are churches all over the world with atheists in their pews.
Yes, but if the spiritual leader keeps mentioning his omnipotent Father who is in Heaven and created everything in the Universe, then the “set of beliefs” of this leader involve God.
Also, if you want to play the dictionary game, courtesy of Merriam-Webster Online I give you… religious
1 : relating to or manifesting faithful devotion to an acknowledged ultimate reality or deity
religion
1 a : the state of a religious <a nun in her 20th year of religion>
b (1) : the service and worship of God or the supernatural (2) : commitment or devotion to religious faith or observance
2 : a personal set or institutionalized system of religious attitudes, beliefs, and practices
I think the above definitely points to belief in God or ultimate reality or deity if you want to be considered as following a religion.
Very well said. The harm to the Spirit by these anti-Christians is immense.
If we would Distill All Religions, we could leave the Dross of d’evil behind. The resulting Spirit would be very strong. Lies do not hold up to Proof, they dissolve in the solvent of Truth,
The Spirit is real. This is clearly demonstrated in this thread. Its physical properties are wave-like; propagating across time, beyond individual life. The properties of the Spirit border on the metaphysical, maybe even the quanta.
We have suffered >4,000 years under the pharisees of the Father, 2,000 under the pharisees of the Son. Enough is enough.
This is the Millennium to take Religion to the next dimension. Our Religion will be based on Truth, based on Spirit.
The next question is: What shall we call ourselves?
us? - All would be invited to join. The only hoop would be to treat all others as equal in love.
Christians? - Christ died for all; the least we can do is to reclaim his Spirit from the anti-Christians.
For now, let us try on: us~ (insert belief system of choice).
us Christians
us Wiccans
us Jews
us Muslims
us Americans
us~
Sorry, hope I didn’t offend with the facetiousness. I can’t come up with a name–and this has been done so often in the past, at least with Christianity. Seems like once Martin Luther etc split with Rome, that anybody and everybody has schismed or started a new colony based on Jesus’ teachings etc.
I do like the inclusion of the other world religions, though. Maybe we should call ourselves mighty fine, but humble, folk. (?)
Yes, it does pretty clearly. You just said it in the definition “a set of beliefs”, when applied to specifically to christians includes belief in god and jesus as the christ as clearly defined. If you don’t have christian beliefs then you would not be considered christian. You are not going to get more from this using such a broad definition to include all religion. There is no mention of any god because you are looking at a definition of religion, not christianity, don’t get the 2 confused. God is included in christian belief. One persons misunderstanding of definitions doesn’t change the meaning of the definition.
You aren’t so mistaken as to believe that christianity encompasses
all religion? Why are you using a definition of religion to compare christianity and atheism, that doesn’t really make sense as christianity is only one of many religions.
Obviously you are not, you are trying to so narrowly define christianity to the point that you claimed if one doesn’t believe in all the doctrines of 100’s of faiths included then they must be considered an atheist(you said this in your previous email). That is a ridiculous fallacy under any definition, and certainly an extremely narrow view. As pointed out previously christianity is actually made up of 100’s of seperate religions with completely different beliefs. Trying to lump all religion and christianity into one thing is a narrow view not a broad one.
No one is denying that there are atheists (more likely agnostics) in churches, but this doesn’t make them into christians.
You need to go back and re-read what I have replied if you still don’t understand these definitions. Lets be honest, the definitions are pretty clear. Even the definitions you provide further prove the point.
Your atheist discussion is getting far off topic. If you want more information on what an atheist is, there is a much information which can be gathered on the internet. As always google is a good place to start.
See, that’s where you threw me…when you speak of the spirit world, you’re not saying anything even close to the same thing as when you talk about the spirit in which something was written, which is again, not even close to the same thing as talking about a person’s spirit (and sometimes, you even capitalize Spirit, which gives it a religious connotation). So, these may be the same word, but we’re talking about apples and oranges here.
I don’t believe in spirits (or capital “S” spirits either). The spirit that I am talking about doesn’t require belief. It is a word akin to attitude or intention.
Christianity isn’t about believing that a mere mortal taught some good stuff. It’s about Christ being the supernatural son of a supernatural god. If you want to talk about him as a regular guy, with no supernatural or religious connotations attached, call him “The ‘J’ Man” or something.
Kalhoun, do you really think there can be no religion without the supernatural? Jeff, you say "you are trying to so narrowly define christianity to the point that you claimed if one doesn’t believe in all the doctrines of 100’s of faiths included then they must be considered an atheist(you said this in your previous email). " I surely said nothing of the sort. Read it to me. You both seem to think I’m saying “Atheists are Christians”. I’m trying to say “Atheists CAN be Christians”.
And I certainly can’t see how that’s off topic.
(Thanks for telling me about Google.)
Must everything be affiliated with a religious denomination of some sort? Can’t a person believe that it’s better to be good than bad without attaching a name to it? Do followers of Martin Luther King, Jr.'s teachings call themselves Martinists?
