What makes them so SURE (religions)

Great Debates
21

I am so impressed with all the copying and pasting you did, to support your previous assertions, happyheathen. :smiley:

Wanna run that by me one more time? Huh? Aren’t you missing a key word there or something?

What I am saying is this: Maybe some people have experienced things you haven’t. Yeah, really. Maybe you don’t really know what actually motivates each person’s individual beliefs, what led them there, what specific experiences they had (which may or may not have been remarkable). You really don’t know.

This kind of reminds me of an argument I had with a friend of mine who was born and raised on the East Coast. I was born and raised on the West Coast. My friend has hardly spent any time in my home state of California. I was telling my friend about some social/cultural attitudes I was exposed to when I was growing up. My friend wouldn’t believe me. “No, people don’t do that. They don’t act that way. They don’t think that way. You just imagined it. You just decided to interpret their behavior that way.”

NO I DIDN’T. It is a possibility that I have experienced these unique things, and my friend hadn’t experienced them. Since as I actually was born and raised in the area I was talking to (and my friend wasn’t) then perhaps I actually know what happened to me, better than my friend.

That’s all I’m sayin’. Maybe these people (at least some of these people) actually have experienced something that you don’t understand, or that has never happened to you. Just because you won’t or cannot accept that it happened to them—it still doesn’t mean it didn’t happen to them.

22

I think a lot of it is fear. Religion, to them, is central to the way they view the world. If their religion is wrong, this has a lot of consequences. First, if there is no afterlife, they realize that they only have a few decades more of conscious thought! Plus, it would mean that they’ve been wasting their finite time practicing a belief system that’s wrong. Also the fear that if there is no God, then good does not always prevail in the end, that evil can sometimes win out, or that the “good” and “evil” way of looking at things is an oversimplistic, flawed Weltanschauung. Fear that that person’s community is all wrong about the fundamental workings of the universe.

Which brings me to my next point: people tend to believe what is taught by their community. Just like a child wouldn’t doubt the reality of the moon landings because his parents and community have reinforced the idea that they are real, a child with a religious upbringing wouldn’t doubt the existence of God because his parents and community have reinforced the idea that God is real. It’s a matter of memetics. Hopefully, the child puts these ideas to the test of logic later, examining the reasons why or why not to believe in the reality of the moon landings or of God. Unfortunately, a lot of people don’t do this or try to rationalize the irrational when they do. Some thoughts are just too central, too dear, too important to just dismiss on a logical whim.

My own transition from 100% religious belief (almost) to a pretty-sure-but-not-100%-certain atheism was a years-long journey of logical speculation and examination, that involved a lot of philosophical thinking and forceful resistance to rationalization. It wasn’t an easy thing to do, and in retrospect a lot of my rationalizations were quite amusing.

23

It always cracks me up when I see atheists try to describe why I have faith. It seems they have just as hard a time describing why I believe as I do. To answer these guys… I understand why you believe as you do. When I had atheistic beliefs I never understood Christians. I thought it was as you guys did. The truth is that neither of you could be further from the truth.

Believe me, its not like i haven’t given this subject a whole ton of very rational thought as is presumed above. Believe me, I have. I am extremely thoughtful about my religion. My faith has nothing to do with a desire for an afterlife/a want to keep on living/a fear of death/a deep rooted desire for something to believe in.

That is such the wrong assumption to make. And yet I totally understand why you think so. The bad news here is I really have no idea how to explain my belief to you. Like yosemite, I had something very personal that happened, and I was turned to God.

Believe me, it was the last thing I wanted. Because I had to challenge every single thing I believed in! And yet if God existed, does that mean all my other beliefs are BS? I tell all my friends that God obviously wanted me to challenge his authority within his own ranks. And that’s what I try to do. You know what… the more I challenge, the more I learn and the more I learn the stronger my faith in him becomes.

OK, I’m not trying to get into the middle of a good argument here… but… wrong wrong and WRONG! In fact, as a general rule, the people I know who have been truely indoctrinated into strong Christian families end up questioning their faith even more than anybody else. Particularly around 8th grade when they really start learning more alternate views of the world.

Those that aren’t indoctrinated with it (such as me) have had a chance to examine and participate in a multitude of religions (which I did). In the end with all of these people there is only one truth. I truely believe that if I had been raised in India, I would still believe what I do today.

'course I could be wrong. :wink:

24

maybe i should have put some background in my previous post. i spent most of my childhood as a very committed Christian, and my last post accurately described why i believed what i did. i think i can safely assume that there are others who believed in the same way. not all, maybe not even most.
i wasn’t attempting to say all religious folk believe for the same reasons i did, and i apologize if i gave that impression.

25

My statement stands as written. I do not think it needs explanation (but, I am the son of an English teacher).

Glad you like the copy/paste numbers.

Did you think I would be unable to accomplish such a massive feat?

26

Obviously I needed a smiley. Shouldn’t that be, “Some experiences can re-inforce parts of one’s faith”? Or are you trying to say something completely different? Have I completely misunderstood the intent of that sentence? (But, glad to know that you are the son of an English teacher. :wink: )

But, you didn’t, did you? You seemed to be so full of assumptions and opinions about what I really meant before, why not back 'em up with some copy and paste?
:wink:

27

yosemitebabe, listen to yourself: Someone I know had an experience that confirmed something. There’s a whole lot of nothing in there which makes it close to a UL. I understand that you don’t want to divulge something personal, but in that case, you can’t really use it as an argument.

As to the OP, I believe religion is a crutch. Reality can be a hard and bitter thing and there are people who feel they can’t get through life without something to hang on to, whether its a fluent command of Klingon or Jesus Christ.

28

Oh, I just love hearing that. I am capable of contemplating a universe in which I will one day cease to be and have no meaning, and I haven’t even entirely ruled it out as a plausible possibility, but all of my personal experiences lead me to believe what I do. My faith is not a crutch.

29

yosemitebabe,

Why don’t you tell us what the personal experience was that you or anyone else had, that maybe you think was credible? I’m more than familiar with NDE (Near Death Experiences), OB (out of Body), Night Terrors, Sleep paralysis, UFO adductions, Lucid dreaming, etc. So far you’ve been silent about your experience, only that you had one. I’d like to hear what you have to say.

John

30

What am I using it as? An argument for what? An argument to explain why my religion is true? No. I am using it as an example of how some people have “experiences”. That’s all I’ve been saying all along. It is not up to you (or anyone else) to decide whether or not the “experience” is valid or not.

After all, my East Coast friend didn’t think my experiences growing up on the West Coast were valid. My friend thought I was imagining it, or making it up. I couldn’t convince them otherwise. But it was frustrating (indeed) to have someone tell me that what I experienced wasn’t valid. Each of us is still entitled to decide that for ourselves.

In my opinion (yes, in MY opinion) the only acceptable answer to the OP (to some of you, anyway) is, “Because they are a bunch of stupid sheep, unlike me, who is extremely logical and a big smarty pants.” I know, there are threads started by religious folk asking essentially the same question about atheists. And they might be looking for the same kind of answer.

In my opinion, both kinds of questions can usually be answered with the same answer: “Maybe they’ve experienced something you haven’t experienced.”

31

John, asking yosemitebabe to tell us her experience after she has specifically said she doesn’t want to only validates happyheathen’s dirty debate tactics.

The OP asked what could make someone sure that they have the correct faith (or lack thereof, I might add).

Some people responded that indoctrination plays a part.

yosemitebabe responded that personal experience can play a part. There is no need for her to divulge personal information to support her point.

I will illustrate:

OP: What could make people so sure that China exists?
—A valid question

Poster1: They’ve been told China exists.
—One valid response

Poster2: Some people have been to China. My sister has been to China.
—Another valid response

Poster3: How can you be sure you were really in China. Maybe you just went to Chinatown. If you had been raised in New York or San Francisco would you be so sure that you were in China and not Chinatown?
—Strawman argument, even if her sister did not in fact go to China, others still may have.

Poster2: I’m pretty sure it was China, dude. Based on my experiences there, I can state this with as much certainty as I can state anything.
—Reasonable response.

Poster3: Oh, so now you’re the King of China are you?
—Complete non-sequitor
Not that you need any defending 'babe :wink:

32

Then I misunderstood your point and I apologize.

Well, I’m hardly a logical person and I have had a variety of experiences, some of which fall into the ‘supernatural’ or ‘mystical’ variety. Now, if I were a Christian, perhaps those types of experiences would have affirmed my Christianity; however, since I am not, they did no such thing. I am not casting any aspersions on you or your sister here.

It is still MY OPINION that religion is a crutch–although not the only crutch out there, by all means.

33

Thanks epolo. :slight_smile: You put it very well.

34

Yosemitebabe, I think what you’re saying is pretty valid, as far as it goes. You’re explaining the thought processes of folks who Have Religion, right? You’re not defending the evidence.

So it’s pointless for folks to attack you for not divulging the evidence.

Even so, I think there’s still a valid question here. Me, I’ve experienced Asheville, North Carolina. I’ve walked through its downtown, and right now I’m looking out the window at the oak trees blowing in the storm that’s rolling in.

If someone asked me whether Asheville exists, I’d say Yes. If they asked me if I were sure, I’d say Yes. If they asked me if there wasn’t an eensy weensy infinitesimal chance I was wrong, I’d say I guess there is.

I mean, I could be insane and hallucinating. “Asheville” could be the set of a massive, Truman-Show-style undertaking. God could have planted all my memories of Asheville in my head just five minutes ago, and maybe I’m really in Poughkeepsie right now.

My experiences make me fairly sure of certain aspects of the universe, but I’m never completely sure.

Some folks have got the doubt thing down pretty well. I don’t really fine Descartes’ “I think therefore I am” to be particularly convincing.

For folks like me, who seem incapable of believing completely in the oak trees outside our windows, imagine how bizarre undoubting belief in something like God looks.

I accept that some folks probably have that undoubting faith. I just can’t comprehend it.

Daniel
[hoping this isn’t a triple post]

35

And sure, if you want to get that picky, no one is sure of anything. I understand your point.

I guess my point is, some people have had “experiences” that have convinced them that their religion (or some facet of it) is as real as Asheville is to you.

36

I did a quick scan of the posts, had planned on doing another read of the entire board, but due to the slow loading of it, I only read some but not all, so my mistake for not catching it where she said she didn’t want to talk about it. Doesn’t make a hell of a lot of sense though, for somebody to be telling everyone on a public board that they had one, but then say it’s too personal, but she spends enough time wanting to debate it on a board, mine you, that asks how can you be so sure. She’s certainly harped on it enough. However, I will take note.

And, I want to commend you for going to the damsel in distress. Such a gallant defense and display of chivalry isn’t seen much this day and age and is to be worthy of approbation, yessireee… You will reach Knighthood soon.

John

37

YB, I don’t think I was being picky: the OP was asking about the “100% sure” attitude that some people have. I don’t get the impression that you have that attitude.

Furthermore, the OP was talking about certainty not only that you’re right, but that everyone with different experiences is wrong. Again, I don’t think that you’re describing that sort of certainty in yourself or your sister.

And it’s this level of there’s-no-way-I-could-be-wrong, even-if-it-means-4-billion-other-people-are-wrong certainty that baffles me and (I think) Chekmate.

(I used to bait street preachers for fun when I was younger and even foolisher. I’m 100% certain that lots of fundies have that incomprehensible level of certainty).

Daniel

38

Daniel: Yeah, I can see where the word “picky” might have been a poor choice. My apologies.

Yeah, that is an extreme that I don’t share (nor does my sister). But I think that the thread has strayed enough to also include the question, “What makes them so (pretty darn sure, the same way they are sure that Asheville exists) that (some facet of their faith, like that God exists) is absolutely true?” And my answer is (again), “Maybe they’ve experienced something that you haven’t.”

So, never before has anyone on this board alluded to an experience or incident, without wanting to divulge every detail, and lay out every personal facet of it? News to me.

"Wanting to debate ‘it’? In what context? That my sister’s experience was genuine, and you should all now believe in my particular religion, because I said so? No, I brought “it” up, in a limited way, making sure from the beginning that everyone knew that I was not going to talk about it in detail. I mentioned it only to indicate that I personally know that some people do, indeed, have powerful experiences that convince them of something religious (or non-religious) in nature.

Actually, some of the rest of you have “harped” on it, expecting me to give more detail, when I said from the beginning that I wasn’t going to do that.

I think you forgot the little wink smiley there. If you didn’t, then, that statement is well…(IMO) kind of snotty.

39

OK, either you completely ignored, misunderstood or put aside my entire post.

Reality is a hard and bitter thing sometimes. Christians, just like everybody else in the world have to confront it. We don’t get a special shield against the bitterness because we have faith in God. How then does it work as a crutch?

We keep the world in perspective given our “eternal life”? God gives us a sense of peace amongst Chaos? It gives us a special ability to feel superior to the world in general?

That doesn’t make a lot of sense to me. My religion is not a crutch to help me get through life. (If it were, it would be a very bad one.)

Thank you for helping to show my 2nd point in my first post. Indoctrination does not automatically mean Christians. In general it means a stronger questioning of yourself.

40

Of all the ways that people find religion, I find these cases the most interesting.

A friend relayed the a story of what brought him to have faith. IIRC he was a teenager delivering pizza one day and somehow had someone take his money from him. Anyway, he gives chase on foot and, according to him, as he was approaching a fence at full speed, suddenly felt an overwhelming urge to stop. He says he stopped on a dime from a full sprint. Basically, faster than you should be humanly able to.

The next day he went to look around the fence and found a baseball bat lying right behind where he was about to cross. He’s convinced that there ws some type of divine intervention that froze him in his tracks and prevented him from harm by whoever was on the otherside of the fence.

He has been a devout Lutheran ever since. I never really prodded him much further than that; because I would like to remain friends. But, I’ve often wondered how unexplained phenominon in someones life seem to lead to religion. Especially, how did he discern that it was a Lutheran God that protected him?