Well…with Dwight Clark at 6’4" and Jerry Rice at 6’2", I think Montana did actually sometimes loft the ball, particularly to Clark in or near the end zone.
Peyton Manning played the Seattle Seahawks a year ago, and lost 43-8.
Tom Brady played the exact same Seattle Seahawks team, and won 28-24.
Brady is better. Flat-out, undeniably, predictably, consistently, better.
He’s the GOAT.
Who exactly declared the discussion of Marino vs. Montana over as you seem to have done? Perhaps you have, but no, it isn’t finished.
Also, Marino didn’t have all the stats over Montana. Montana supporters always pointed to the fact that Montana had a better career passer rating than Marino. Marino supporters always pointed out that Montana had much better skill players (Rice, Clark, Taylor, Craig, etc) and coaching.
And I recall back around 2000, people were trying to make that argument that Elway was the best ever (no, really) when he hung 'em up. Super Bowl wins make people abandon any prior opinion on players (no one thought Elway was the best before Terrell Davis showed up and made Elway a Super Bowl winner).
I wasn’t aware they played other teams by their lonesome 
The skill players argument I’ll accept - though Mark Clayton and Mark Duper were arguably as good as or better than nearly anyone Brady’s ever played with - but the coaching thing is a nonstarter. Marino spent his entire career working for a Hall of Famer who’s first all-time in coaching wins.
I’d argue that most would take Walsh over Shula (esp 1980s Shula, who wasn’t horrible, but wasn’t as good as he was in the 60s and 70s).
I mean, maybe, but describing is as some kind of dispositive advantage for Montana seems like a stretch to me.
It is an advantage, regardless of how dispositive it is. It’s part of the 49ers package that Montana had.
I remember the whole counterfactual that was played - what if Marino was on the 49ers and Montana on the Dolphins. The coaching (the West Coast Offense in particular) was part of the benefit that the 49ers had.
My personal opinion aside for a moment, most if not all discussions of the greatest Brady/Manning have been vs Montana not Marino the past couple years, in a lot of media, networks, forums, and blogs. Not 100% certainly, but 80-90% easily.
Marino was an incredible pocket passer, I loved watching in amazement how easily he flicked the ball 40-50 yards down the field with just his arm strength.
I believe Staubach is the greatest QB, but I’m a Cowboys fan, so what do I know. Seriously though, yes, I believe it’s Montana, and still do for that matter. Brady does come into the conversation now though.
Isn’t this part of the same argument vis a vis Manning/Brady?
Elway is certainly in the conversation as one of the top 5 greatest.
That is an entirely different argument, but a very interesting one. Another argument is Marino never had a great running back or defense. Certainly part of the discussion, but as things stand now…
I haven’t heard his name in the Top 5 for quite a while, to be honest. Though maybe that’s because Brady and Peyton Manning have forced their way into Top 5 consideration.
Personally I wouldn’t put him there either (I mean think about it, the conversation of Top 5 has to include arguments for Otto Graham, Unitas, Marino, Montana, Brady, Peyton Manning - and that’s 6 already, and that’s not even counting the two great Packer QBs - Starr and Favre). I’ll put Elway in the Top 10, but I can’t do Top 5.
Brady is not even the best active QB and this season he was probably 3rd or 4th. I would say over his career he’s generally been in the top 5 but I would doubt there were many seasons he was number 1. Since this season Rodgers was clearly the best QB I don’t see how Brady can become the greatest of all time in a season where he wasn’t the best.
The other reason that Brady can’t be the best of all time is that he is only barely better then Matt Cassel. In 2007 the Pats went 16-0 under Brady in 2008 they go 11-5 under Cassel in 2009 they went 10-6 under Brady. The Patriot team changed greatly after their Super Bowl loss and I would say that the team in 2008 was more similar to the team in 2009 then in 2007. But even if you average them Brady is only worth 2 more wins then Cassel. Compare that to Manning who was worth 8 wins more then his back up in 2011 or on par with Luck.
So if Brady isn’t the best QB when he’s playing and he’s easily replaced when he’s not there is no way he’s the best.
Montana never led the league in passing yards or completions. In 13 seasons, he only led the league in passer rating twice. He only led the NFL in yards per attempt and passing yards per game once. He only once led the NFL in interception rate also. Ken Anderson, Joe Theisman, Dan Marino, John Elway, and Boomer Esiason were all QB’s who won league MVP’s while he was playing.
I don’t think “he wasn’t the best every year he played” is a good measure at all.
I think the fact Matt Cassell had a modicum of success one year doesn’t make Brady “easily replaced”
So, you’re saying Josh McCown has a chance?
That’s fair enough. For me seeing win MVP 5 times to Brady’s 2 shows who was consistently better over their careers but I think you’re right that it’s not useful to compare between generations of players that way.
I’m not sure what other metric would you use to determine how much better Brady is then a generic replacement player. WAR is a great stat if you have the data set to make it work but in football there isn’t enough games to make it meaningful. On the other hand when you actually replace them with someone it’s fairly easy to come up with how much more valuable someone is.
Take Ohio State, I think it’s pretty easy to make the argument that all three of their QBs are equivalent since they got similar results from all three of them. While there is some objective difference in their quality I don’t think it would be big enough to give anyone them even a 1 WAR.
I disagree. Pro football reference has what they call approximate value (if you want to read about how they did it, you can start here). Tom Brady is #6 on their list as more valuable than replacement level.
If you’re a fan of WAR, I assume you would also agree that the traditional use of wins as determining how good a pitcher is a load of hooey. I think much the same is true if you try to compare Brady to Cassell based on win totals of their teams.
Interesting evaluation tool… here is Pro Football Reference’s Career AV numbers:
This is the top 10 (the formatting is a bit weird when copy/pasting):
Interesting list but IMO Brady ranks above the 4 other QBs there. Of the 4 QBs there in terms of overall greatness as a QB, for me it is:
Brady
Manning
Tarkenton
Marino
Favre
Adding the 3 greatest ever to play the position it is:
Montana
Unitas
Brady
Manning
Graham
Tarkenton
Marino
Favre
There may be others I’d rank above Tarkenton but that last list takes the 4 QBs from ISiddiqui’s list and adds the 3 overall greatest ever, Montana, Unitas and Graham.
That’s a slightly amusing statement because it kind of says, I took this objective standard and added my own subjective ideas on top of it ;). Which can somewhat work for older QBs, as AV starts with 1970 and more current (due to the amount of stats they can get). Montana is ranked by AV, but 26th. I’m not saying that AV is perfect, but you can’t really ‘blend’ systems here, I don’t think. It’s fine to say you think AV is a piece of crap, though.
Not too many people thought Belichick was one of the finest coaches of all time when he got fired by Cleveland after 4 losing seasons in 5 years, a 36-44 record and 1 playoff win.
Thanks I’d never heard of approximate value before and that was pretty interesting reading. It does support my theory that Brady is no where near the greatest quarterback ever (Manning is 30% better then him).
I very much agree that using wins is a terrible way to compare how good players are on different teams. But if you take my team, the Dodgers, and say that Kershaw won 21 games while Grenke 17 I think it gives a fairly good idea of how relatively good they are. Sure there are variations of who they played against and where they played but generally they were supported by the same runs and the same defense. Is it a perfect metric of course not and I would only suggest something like this for players on the same team playing a similar schedule. Which of course makes it harder to do for football.
I’m trying to find the single season AV for Cassel in 2010 to compare it to Brady in 2011 but I’m having trouble finding either.