what many creationists think of science and the public education system

Brain Glutton,

No, It’s a no win, no win. My thoughts on this subject are not arguable. They just are. I’m out numbered by atheists that think Science is the last word on Creationism. Rather than be called names I will leave something that explains my beliefs by a Theologian that does a much better job. I originally commented that I was exposed to all the different theories in school. I have an open mind to what can’t be explained in science or in theology but I would never call a person names that tried to explain them to me. I am not “afraid” of things I don’t understand. I don’t like arguing about theories because I’m afraid I might be wrong. Pax~

Heresies, Scientism and Ecclesial Angelism

How does that in any way imply that “a lot of [science] is not based on facts”?

Honest question (I’m being completely and utterly serious): how old are you?

He expressed it just fine.

I must say, Perciful, that for awhile, you really had me convinced!

Good show, sir or madame! I believe that yours is the most successfully meta posting style I’ve come across yet here on the SDMB. Bully for you!

Founders? Really? We’re going the founders route? I’d think the Athenians who came up with democracy or the Romans who came up with the Republic might find it a bit odd that we don’t have huge temples to zues or jupiter sitting around. Not relevant at all though.

I have no historical basis for this but I imagine every time a new scientific theory came around this whole thing repeats for a few centuries until it died out.

Eaxmple: The world was proved round. This was actually a hypothesis long before testing to which people said “nope” flat.

Later on people where like “HEEEEYYY maybe the sun is the center of the universe.” this is where I think it might get interesting. Much like Hold fast is doing I think people of that day probably said this “Oh yeah just like people thought the world was flat right?” See what’s happening? They’re not saying “no” anymore they are equating new scientific evidence to old , and obviously in hindsight untrue, held beliefs.

This continues to today where in some miracle some creationist have actually latched on to the “Evolution is as bogus as the earth being flat” bus. Which is mind blowing to say the least.

By the way Benjamin Franklin and Thomas Jefferson (as has been shown) where two founders I can pretty much say for sure where not lovers of religion or religious ideology.

Another thing Hold Fast. Stop using the Lay definition of Theory. I’m serious, stop. It makes you sound completely uninformed. I know people say things like “Hey rick’s not acting like himself. I think his wife might leave him but that’s just my theory.” The word Theory in the Theory of Evolution does not have nearly anything in common with the theory from that example. In order to be elevated to “Theory.” Pretty much everything that needs to be proven about it is airtight and proven and the only thing lacking is a time machine where we can go back and directly watch it. Notice that scientists don’t refer to global warming as a"theory?" Sure there’s some solid evidence and some numbers but it really takes a whole hell of a lot to get there. Making something a “Theory” in the scientific community I suppose might be akin to etching it on stone for moses way back when. You can still erase it but it’s actually damned hard and requires more than some shoddy carbon dating of a snail shell and some idea about fossil redistribution.

The only time real scientists might even discuss intelligent design might be after a few joints, a bag of funions, a 6-pack and a 48 hour halo marathon and even those scientists are the christian ones.

Which brings me to my next point which is really really really really important. Falsifiability. This is really where creationism vs intelligent design falls apart and I wish more people where more well read about it. In order for something to be accepted as scientific it must be falsifiable. That means it must be possible that an assertion can be shown false through observation and experiment. That is to say you can make predictions based on the theory of evolution and see if they come true or not. This would either prove wrong (falsify) or confirm your assertion. This has actually been done. This is why Evolution is a theory and creationism is not.

The other point Hold Fast made was that it was accepted that the earth was flat by a majority. Honestly science has never needed a majority to be right. Evolution does not need your personal belief to be true. 99.999% of the people on the planet could disavow evolution tomorrow and it wouldn’t change the fact. This is another key difference. Creationism requires belief to be held up. If the same 99.999% of the same people stopped believing in creationism and at the same time didn’t believe in evolution then creationism would disappear completely while evolution would still continue. Evolution does not need you or me or scientists to be fact. If humans never existed evolution would still exist while the bible wouldn’t.

Scientists didn’t come up with evolution they just observe and measure it. You seem to think that scientists sit around all day just writing stuff down and seeing what sticks. Scientists are really nothing more that historians. It’s just that the history they study requires a bit more testing than “I was there and here’s what I saw.” Scientists are more like crime scene investigators. Putting together odd bits until what happened starts to emerge. Where as creationists are the like a turn of the century Mississippi jury who don’t need evidence because they already know “the black guy done it.”

You do also realize another important aspect of science? It’s another good one. Scientists aren’t big fans of agreeing. Takes quite a bit to get them on the same page. They’re kind of cocky like that. You don’t think some young gun wouldn’t love to be in the lab one day and disprove evolution? Good lord the money and fame and renown that goes along with that. Scientists live to knock down theories, they love it, it’s like sex to them. Why do you think we even have an expanding universe theory? For decades most scientists were dead set on the steady state then some young guns came along and said “wait a minute.”

I really wish I could convince you to read up on the actual science behind evolution. I actually think it is absolutely beautiful and enriching a theory. To know that this complex living system developed of millions of years and eventually gave birth to us is to me breath-taking. I don’t think it’s “we’re all monkey.” It’s so much more. Trial and error, failings, extinctions and finally us. Sitting here. Arguing, inventing, being self aware. Even being able to see all of this is stunning to me. I don’t need there to be a creator to see life as beautiful and wonderful. I don’t need a creator to cherish every single day or to love my family or to help my friends. I don’t need a creator to care for the sick or visit the imprisoned. I’m not trying to attack you when I say evolution is fact. I’m trying to show you that it is so much more fulfilling to be a good person without the fear of punishment and without the constant knowledge that you owe some big creator a debt. I’m a good person because I want to be not because I have to be.

By the way much like the original poster. Former fundamentalist, alter boy, church going, praying every night, sacrament receiving, reconciliation getting Catholic.

Quoted (both from the same post) for irony.

I’m refering to The Big Bang Theory and Evolution which cannot be reproduced in a science lab. These are ideas of how the earth was created.

Well actually Perciful those two theories are actually based on facts. Physics are pretty unforgiving. So is math. Evolution can actually be studied in a lab. The big bang is slightly harder to grasp but we do know for a fact that the universe is expanding and honestly it’s simply a matter of reversing the math and we get a single point. If the universe isn’t expanding then of course we run into issues where our math is wrong and if our math is wrong i’m pretty sure your car won’t start tomorrow (since it basically uses the same math on a smaller scale.)

I think this is people not quite grasping how intertwined sciences are. One concept logically leads to another.To say that a single part of the big picture isn’t true means a whole lot of other things aren’t true either. It’s like playing jenga really. You can’t just start saying. “ok, physics works in my car but not in space.” Either both your car and space are magic or they both basically use the same math. There’s a real intertwining there.

Ok maybe evolution is a sham. That’s fine. Run with it. We should however notify biologists though. They might want to know that we have no idea what we are talking about when it comes to genetics and anything else that goes along with it.

You send the memo. I don’t want to get tagged for this one.

Things don’t have to be reproducible in a lab in order to be observed, described and understood.

Did you learn about all the other creation myths, or just Genesis? If not, you didn’t get “all the different angles”; you got two.

Perciful. As I stated before I don’t think you really appreciate exactly how hard it actually is to get scientists to agree on anything. It’s not like Darwin published a book and everyone in the room exhaled and said “Finally. Ok guys we’re going to run with this.” A lot of them spent a good damned long time basically trying to demolish the whole thing. Most scientific articles seem to be of the “You’re wrong, here’s why.” variety. Scientists love! proving other scientists wrong. It’s the easiest way to get famous or published. One by one every scientist who has studied this has come along and basically had to eat their pride and said “alright, fine maybe just maybe you’re onto something here.” You have a better chance of getting muslim and christian fundamentalists to sit through a “best of George Carlin” marathon in the same room and have each one walk out alive and happy then to get a room ful of twenty scientists who agree. It’s well more rare then you are giving credit for.

I thought they’d at least need to be experienced twice, before you could start making any worthwhile guesses on how they happened, though. Did scientists discover all they needed to know about supernovas by observing just the one?

With regard to how the universe came into existence, I can’t understand why the “experts” don’t just say, “Ask us a question we are qualified to answer and something that actually means something if we can reply.”

Why waste a significant amount of your time trying to answer a query that will add nothing to our existence? It’s not like we’ll get bonus points in some cosmic quiz!

Firstly, evolution has nothing to do with how the Earth was created. Cosmology is a completely different branch of science from evolutionary biology.

Secondly, evolution can be - and has been – reproduced in a science lab, as well as being observed in nature. It is entirely testable.

Thirdly, while the Big Bang is not reproducible, one can develop theories about what happened and, based on known laws of physics, test those theories through observation.

Finally, Creationism or any other miraculous events that cannot be tested because the laws of physics have purportedly been violated by God, however, are by their lack of testability not science.

Ivan,
E=mc*2. I’m pretty sure we tested this twice. (well a few hundred times but nagasaki and hiroshima were pretty glaring examples).

Let’s not get off topic though.

Ivan,
“If” we were intelligently designed our creator certainly gave as a pretty overwhelming sense of curiosity.

Short answer : Just because.

Mangetout,

You twist my words to suit yourself. You enjoy making fun of me because I scare you. Good! Take that fear and create something positive instead of making fun of someone that scares you. When something scares me I search for the truth in books and online for an answer. I may not find it but it is still time well spent.

If parents feel strongly against certain teachings there are avenues to get it removed from public school curriculum. That was my point. I am a Christian and God gave me a brain that is always searching. I am a seeker of the truth which can’t always be proven.

Our children need to see everything that is available to teach them that there are many ways to interpret Creation, life and our world. We have taken much of the arts out of schools because it is too expensive. Our kids are no longer challenged to be creative and to think in ways outside the box.

Science is a great thing but it does not explain everything. “The Seven Wonders Of The World” are still being studied. As a child I was taught that slaves moved the huge granite blocks but yesterday on the History Channel they think aliens may have done it! We just don’t know…and I’m Ok with aliens although I have never seen one.

What’s that again? Energy=maccheeseburger to the power of 2, or something?

Perciful,
Oh dear God no. The 7 wonders of the world are not still being studied (well maybe for historic value). Some people ‘claim’ to be studying them. The pyramids where Not built by aliens. To say the Pyramids were built by aliens to me is actually insulting to humanity as a whole. Actually the slave thing has been brought into doubt too.

This History channel is a great resource to spark curiosity but please, please do not take it as dogma it is still just entertainment with some education thrown in. I really do hate those specials as they don’t really give a good overview. 99.9999999999999999999999999% of scientists do not believe aliens had anything to do with the pyramids. Please I would rather you believe the earth was suspended on the backs of four great elephants who in turn where perched on the back of a giant space turtle than believe this.

Ivan,
cute. You asked about supernovas I told you. It’s not my fault if you don’t understand it. I’m not going to get into that we’re already getting off topic.