Somewhat clumsily phrased. Based on the thread about Gandalf, I got to wondering: who was absolutely necessary, and who could have been gone from the start without making a difference?
Obviously Gandalf had to be there, as his efforts made a crucial difference, discussed in the other thread. Aragorn similarly, since nobody else in Middle Earth could have gotten the allegiance of the ghost army (forget their actual names). Legolas and Gimli I’m not sure about, but they provided welcome combat aid (they would have been in dire straits, I think, without those two at some points). Frodo was chosen to bear the ring, and I think that was for a reason, and Frodo himself said (though I don’t know that it was in the books) that he wouldn’t have gotten far without Sam. Boromir provided an element arguably necessary for the international admittance of the group, as a noble Man, and probably saved the Hobbits’ lives when he sacrificed his own. In addition, I think it affected Aragorn deeply when Boromir, fatally wounded, called him his king, when before Boromir had been scornful of the very idea and disdainful of this upstart Ranger. Pippin and Merry seem the most questionable to me; without Pippin (or Merry, I can never remember which is which), Eowyn would most likely have gone down before the Witch-King (unless that part isn’t in the books), but I’m not sure how much difference that would have made.
Thoughts?
Gimli served no purpose beyond Legolas having a WoW partner to pwn n00b orcs with.
Pippin only complained, provided comic relief, and occasionally got the whole fellowship into trouble. Merry was also pretty useless as far as the Fellowship itself was concerned, but he did help slay the Witch-King at the end.
Boromir was required for plot-turning purposes.
Of course, they could’ve avoided this whole Fellowship nonsense if they’d just hired Gwahir to carry the ring directly to Mount Doom.
Pippin saved Faramir; Merry helped slay the Witch-king, so they were necessary.
Only Gimli and Legolas seem extraneous to actually completing the quest, but they were necessary for the theme of uniting peoples of various backgrounds to fight against evil.
I think Frodo was basically worthless. He’s constantly getting wounded, he gets suckered by Gollum, he can’t fight, and at the end of the day, he can’t even perform the task of throwing the ring into the volcano.
Considering that Bilbo Baggins was one of the great hobbits of his day (if not history), and that even he eventually succumbed to the ring, it’s asking a little too much of Frodo to be able to destroy it himself. Instead, the Council should have designated multiple (at the very least two) ring bearers for the journey, with each former ring bearer being forced to head back after his ring-bearing is over. I don’t think anyone in Middle Earth could have made the whole journey and then thrown the ring into Mt. Doom; someone who picked up the ring a few days before he had to get rid of it might still have had willpower enough to do it.
Thus, Sam should definitely be a ring-bearer, but Frodo is required as well. Maybe even Merry as the third (or perhaps middle-leg ring-bearer). As for the OP, it’s hard to say, but Gandalf is needed for his tricksiness and Balrog-stopping ways, Aragorn is definitely needed for his fighting ability (Weathertop at the very least), and then Sam and Frodo for the minimum amount of ring-bearers. Legolas and Gimli add additional fighting capability, but it’s unclear whether they’re absolutely necessary; the Fellowship could have snuck through more areas as a party of 4 as opposed to 9. Boromir adds fighting ability and a very chilling reminder of the seductive evil of the ring (not sure if any of the four would have needed the reminder, though). He also adds a certain degree of motivation to the other members by their wanting to avenge his death and make it count for something. But probably not necessary. Merry and Pippen are pretty much just excess baggage and serve their most important roles outside of the Fellowship proper anyway.
So I’ll go with:
Aragorn, Gandalf, Samwise, Frodo (perhaps substitute Merry for either of the other hobbits)
Merry and Pippin singlehandedly got the allegiance of the Ents. The Ents destroyed Orthanc, defeating Saruman. And while Saruman’s army still went up against Rohan, when they lost, they didn’t regroup. So Merry and Pippin made sure the good war didn’t had to be fought on two fronts.
Really, did you think Tolkien was such a bad writer he would create heroes that were unnecessary for the story?
Right, Merry and Pippin were very important in the War of the Ring, but they didn’t necessarily have to be with the Fellowship to accomplish what they did; the Fellowship essentially served as a bus ride to the starting point of the places where they would make an impact. If they had instead been sent out as hobbit delegates (unrelated to the Fellowship) to the same areas, who’s to say that they wouldn’t have made an equally impressive impact?
Indeed, the actual Fellowship dwindled to two (Sam and Fro) about half-way through the journey, and they managed to complete the mission, albeit with the unintentional help from Gollum. You do need fighters/guides to even get them to that half-way point, but it’s quite possible Aragorn and Gandalf would have sufficed. Others did contribute to the defense of the Ring-Bearer, and they all went on to play important roles in the overall war, but Frodo’s Quest may have been accomplished with as few as the Fab Four, starting from Rivendell.
They needed every damn one. I suspect the battles with the werewolves and the whole sad affair in Moria were both close enough that both Gandalf & Aragorn were spending a lot of time thinking, “WHY THE HELL DIDN’T WE BRING GLORFINDEL!?!? And also the Rangers.”
I can’t see that working. Moving the Ring from bearer to bearer like that is going to breed envy and desire among the two currently not bearing it, and accelerate the process of dissension among the group. Part of avoiding the lure of the Ring is not thinking of yourself as its owner, or being responsible for it. I think that is why Aragorn, in particular, refused outright to touch it–because Frodo was right when he said that Aragorn, being Isildur’s heir, had at least as legitimate a claim to the item Isildur claimed as weregild as did either Baggins. But had Aragorn exercised that right, he’d have started down the path to damnation.
Were Merry and Pippin necessary for that, though? I always read through that section with the impression that they’re just long for the ride, and Gandalf the White was the prime mover there.
**Merry **proved very useful as he and Pippin acted as a catalyst to get the Ents going quickly. Even Gandalf by himself would have probably taken longer and it was time he could ill afford. Merry helping to kill the Lord of the Nazguls save Éowyn and probably many other lives. He was a smart and exceptional Hobbit. Probably the best suited after Frodo to carry the ring actually. Keep in mind he was also the leader of the small conspiracy and without him Frodo may well have never made it out of the Shire. *Unless of course Gildor had taken a damn interest and decided to escort Frodo to at least Bree. *
Pippin, Pippin is tougher. You got to believe nearly any other young Took or Brandybuck could have done nearly as well and maybe better. His mistakes were major but he made up for much by saving Faramir.
**Gimli **was an exceptional Dwarf. A better fighter than most but it is hard to claim he made a huge difference. The same for Legolas. Both of them could have probably been replaced by others of their race or in Gimli’s case any stout fighter. I love Gimli, but I am not sure what he contributed that was truly special. His shining moment was surely at Helm’s Deep. He probably helped Gandalf get through Moria but I would think many other Dwarves would have done the same.
Legolas was a great archer, but I get the impression that many other Elves were near his equal and probably better in mêlée combat. One of Elrond’s sons might have been more useful.
This brings me real quick to Glorfindel. I get the impression, though I can’t prove it that Glorfindel was too much. This is an ancient Elf of the Light that slayed a Balrog in the Fall of Gondolin and drove off the Witch King of Angmar (The Lord of the Nazguls) in the 3rd age and of course actually made Nazguls afraid. He probably would have been too noticeable if he was heading towards Mordor. Though he would have been of great use at least getting through Moria. I suspect that was the reason Gandalf chose the Hobbits over him.
**Boromir **could have been replaced easily by a doughty Ranger or Son of Elrond. In some ways things might have been better. Better still if he had stayed south to lead the battles of Gondor and let Faramir be the messenger to Rivendell.
Aragorn, Frodo, Samwise and Gandalf were of course absolutely required.
Frodo was too emo. I’d’ve voted him off the team first round.
Aragorn, too. God, I got sick of the two of them moping. And Sam was too needy. Yuck!
The Doublemint Twins were filler. As were Gimlet and Legolam. And Gandalf was not trustworthy around the Ring. Bilbo shoulda just knifed Gollum and chucked the Ring into the nearest river.
I can’t agree, mi amigo. Transposing Boromir and Faramir leads to disaster.
Though he was sinful to try to take the Ring, Boromir chose (or was prodded by Providence) to do so at exactly the right time. His doing so prompts Frodo to do the thing he knew he should do but was afraid to do: abandon the group (and Aragorn’s protection) in favor of going on alone. (Well, with Samwise, but that’s not Master Underhill’s idea). If Faramir is there, he, being less arrogant and more knowledgeable than his brother, is able to better resist the lure of the Ring. As a result Aragorn’s plan – that he, Gimili, and Sam accompany Frodo to Mordor, while the younger hobbits & Legolas accompany the son of Denethor to Gondor. I suspect Rohan dies in this scenario.
Moreover, I suspect that either Gimli or Aragorn is going to kill Gollum when they encounter him; they’re both very intolerant of threats to Frodo, and Frodo, not having been thrust into sole leadership yet, is not strong enough to sway their hands. Additionally, in this scenario, the four of them meet a band of Gondorian warriors led by BOROMIR rather than Faramir. I think that ends badly.
But let’s say that Faramir takes Boromir’s place and dies just as he did, and that Boromir survives. I can’t believe he’s going to meekly accede to Aragorn’s overlordship. I think part of the reason Faramir was resistant to the ring’s blandishments was that he didn’t want the first thing it always offers–power over others–in the first place. He didn’t want to be Steward; he wanted a King back. Aragorn’s propitious appearance after his father’s death gave him a legitimate and honorable way to avoid an office he wanted no part of in the first place.
This is mostly a nitpick, but was’t it Elrond, not Gandalf, who ultimately made the choices of the additional 7 members of the Fellowship. (Frodo and Gandalf are obviously a given.) Elrond it was who decided Glorfindel could not be spared from Rivendell. Also, at no point was everyone intended to go all the way to Mordor. Aragorn says that Gandalf either had no clear plan beyond the Mountains or did not share it; certainly Boromir was always supposed to leave them at some point and go to Minas Tirth, and I seem to think that Legolas was intended to do the same. And I just can’t believe Elrond EVER meant for Pippin to go to Mordor. Pippin’s the hobbit equivalent of a 17-year-old kid; Elrond wanted him to go home, and had to be talked into it by Gandalf.
This was a what if. Boromir was a better Captain than Faramir. He would have done a bit better in the War. Denethor would have been less tempted to use the Palantir and not fallen as far into despair. If Faramir was along, he would have resisted the Ring far better than Boromir and things would have changed, maybe for the worse. Let’s say Frodo would have been less tense without the really strong big human fighter acting all weird around him and may have had an easier time making up his mind. Also with Faramir, he would have either volunteered to escort Frodo to the goal or not put Aragorn in as much of a quandary. We already discussed in the prior thread how Gandalf could have still raised the Ents and saved Rohan. Aragorn or Faramir may well have led Frodo and Sam by other means to Mt. Doom. There were other ways into Mordor. Obviously any change in the Fellowship would have spelled change but most of the good that came from Boromir was in his failure.
I’m sorry you are not correct, in the *Council of Elrond *(Chapter two, Book 2 (FotR)) Elrond is deliberating on the last two from his household and Gandalf supports Merry & Pippin over Glorfindel.
I’ll give Boromir an edge in a monomachy; I’m doubt anyone less than Aragorn could have taken him in a monomachy. But as a leader of men? Faramir all the way. He was definitely smarter, and less likely to be concerned with personal glory than the successful completion of his mission and the weal of his men.
I wrote imprecisely. I don’t mean that Elrond was supporting Glorfindel; I mean that the choice was seen to be his, not Gandalf’s. I’m always surprised at how submissive Mithrandir is to Elrond in that council…but, of course, Elrond’s the one supplying the hors d’oeuvres, Armagnac, hookers, and blow.
Actually Faramir said Boromir was the better Captain to Frodo and Sam IRC. I think he meant it. Boromir was a better warrior and brave as King Eärnur. Which of course means that Boromir may have failed in places where Faramir succeeded of course.
Remember that Elrond was prepared to send an Elf-Lord or perhaps one of his sons. Gandalf did talk him out of it. As to the submissive part that really does fit the mission statement I think that Gandalf was charged with by Manwë.
