What ought the government do/pay for AFTER a disaster (hurricane?)

Kinda related to the thread about disaster preparedness, what do you believe the government ought to do AFTER the disaster. Yes, of course, you want to rescue and care for anyone who was stranded/injured. But what should public funds pay for to rebuild? To what extent should FEMA funds supplement private insurance, and what considerations should be applied in rebuilding infrastructure?

As desirable as beachfront/forest/mountain/quakezone living might be, it seems to me that people who choose to build/buy/live in such areas ought to be largely on their own in terms of insuring their property and absorbing any property losses. And I’m not sure what I think WRT public utilities. Should the local government be expected to install and repair roads/electricity/water-sewage to areas where people perhaps ought not be living so densely? If a state chooses to do so, ought the feds step in when the expected occurs?

In some instances, it has impressed me that following a disaster, considerable changes ought to be made to how cities had historically developed/grown. For example, how much effort and expense ought to have been put into rebuilding New Orleans in situ, instead of developing area ABOVE sea level? Same applies for flood zones along major rivers.

I heard something on NPR the other day. They were talking about vanishing wetlands in Iowa, saying, “Wetland los is permanent. Once it is gone, it isn’t coming back.” Well, not necessarily… :wink:

Do you really believe that wetlands are the same as periodically flooded or inundated lands?

No, of course I don’t. Sorry, I shoulda included a smiley or something. But I guess I DO believe that if development was allowed in vulnerable areas - especially combined with climate change, perhaps instead of rebuilding, consideration might go to repurposing - allowing property to revert to less developed states.

I think one has to consider multiple factors.

History and known threats, for example. If you live in a floodplain you should be required to carry flood insurance. If your residence was grandfathered in (having been built by your literal grandfather before that was a requirement, for example) then perhaps it is reasonable to receive assistance in relocating rather than rebuilding. There is precedent for towns being rebuilt in a slightly different (and higher) location after flooding events. Rather than rebuilding in an area that will likely re-flood repeatedly requiring relocation could be a fair condition for receiving funds. In other instance perhaps requiring buildings to be on stilts or otherwise elevated could be a requirement of rebuilding funds. Ideally, this would involve examining historical records, changing conditions, and local needs and options.

In some instances it is not practical to relocate. Example: most of Florida. The whole place is subject to hurricanes. But, outside of those events, a lot of people want to live there. After the rescues and the clearing of rubble I think (in my ideal-but-does-not-exist-world) there should be some deep thinking about what to rebuild and what now to, and how. You can build for storm resistance. Concrete structures, for example, fair better than “manufactured housing”. The problem there is that building for storm resistance costs money, and not all residents are flush with cash. (Also, not everyone likes the look of hurricane-resistant architecture. Too bad. I rank them with folks who move out into the Nevada desert but want to maintain the same lawn they had in Ohio - kind of stupid. If a lawn is that important maybe you should stay in Ohio.) Rather than having the less well off living in tents (which are even less storm resistant than manufactured housing) some sort of grant or subsidy for lower income people to have safe housing would make the most sense. Alternatively, one could take the option that some mobile home parks in my area have for storm/tornado shelters - a central and nearby bunker sort of building in which to take refuge for a grouping of less strongly built housing. Not ideal, but it would save lives. You want it close by so people can get to it easily/quickly and without need for motorized transportation. That might be an option for fragile housing that survived this time in repairable condition, but not for housing wiped off the map where relocation or storm-resistant building should be required (with, one would hope, some sort of subsidy/help for less than wealthy residents. Generating masses of homeless people through poor or overly austere planning is not in the interest of society in my opinion).

Some beachfront areas, and barrier islands, should NOT be rebuilt with human residences. I’m sorry, but between storms and rising sea levels that is just not viable in the long term. Businesses for tourists, sure - people should be able to enjoy these places. Perhaps rental vacation cabins for short term tourist stays WITH the understand that in the event of a storm evacuations are strictly mandatory well in advance and even when the risk not that high, simply because such places are simply unsafe regardless of construction in a hurricane. Instead of giving rebuilding loans that money would be better used to help people relocate to safer housing.

While I am rambling on, this is not meant to be a comprehensive, all-inclusive document on managing threats to human settlements. Which will always be a problem because there really isn’t anywhere free of local hazards. Consider the mountainous west, which does not experience hurricanes but does have wildfires. We know better ways to build - different materials (stone and concrete rather than wood), buffer zones around buildings (which causes some issues with tree lovers), and so on. Make such techniques mandatory in order to receive insurance or compensation. For structures grandfathered in make it a sliding scale - a log cabin in an area known for wildfires is problematic, but perhaps if there is a minimum size buffer of cleared ground around it some insurance could be provided, even if not the full value of the property.

A big problem with all this, however, is that Americans love their freedom, even when it should be spelled “freedumb”. A lot of people will howl about government interference and tyranny… but still expect to be rescued by the government they despise when disaster occurs.

New Orleans is a problem because

  • it was never that high above sea level anyway
  • it is sinking, and has been for a long time
  • the little bit of higher ground is the historic district (the first settlers weren’t stupid - they chose the “high” ground in the area) no one wants to raze and rebuild
  • commerce pretty much requires a port in the mouth of the Mississippi
  • rivers change over time, with man-made ports silting up, sinking, or otherwise becoming unusable.

Given the above, we need New Orleans or something like it where it is located due to industrial, business, and geographical reasons. Correction - we need a port where New Orleans is. We do not necessarily need a city in the sense of residences close to the work areas. We have a city there because in the past people didn’t have mechanized transport like we do now, enabling them to live miles and miles away from where they work.

We need to realize we can’t fix New Orleans. It WILL re-flood again. The ground level continues to sink AND ocean levels are anticipated to rise. Logically we should be trying to relocate the residences to higher ground but people aren’t logical and there’s enough hostility between class levels in this country that the wealthy would balk at any hit that the public assist the poor in that relocation, even though it won’t occur without that help. People get irrationally attached to location. In some instances the only wealth a family has is tied up in a house, even if it’s a dilapidated house in a flood zone, and it’s not just to ask they abandon what few assets they have without compensation. In addition, at some point in the future the mighty Mississippi is going to change and we’ll probably need to relocate the industrial parts of the port.

In my area we have a couple of parks in low-lying areas. During flooding events they are simply allowed to flood - absolutely no attempt is made to stop this natural process. This gives water from other parts of the surrounding area a place to go, and what damage occurs is to park structures that are either built to be flood tolerant or easily repaired. For most of the year it’s a recreational area. During floods they’re off limits. Damage is very minor, costs are minimal.

I am not sure, but are there cases where a homeowner is going to be paying a mortgage on a house that no longer exists? Are they expected to rebuild by the lender? I suspect some of the reason people stay and rebuild is because they HAVE to - they cannot just walk away from their hurricane-stripped foundation. I think people are tied to their property legally and financially. If that’s the case, who is going to assume their loan or forgive it, to allow them to move somewhere else? Same for businesses - can owners simply walk away from a destroyed business? I am not sure so genuinely asking.

Oh, absolutely - the structure may be obliterated but a loan is not so easily destroyed. The homes are gone but the mortgages remain. It’s a common problem post-disaster.

Could they walk away? Sure - of course that will slam their credit rating the same as a foreclosure or bankruptcy, so good luck getting a new mortgage or loan - or even getting a rental unit. With that kind of black mark on your record a lot of landlords won’t want to rent to you, utilities will require substantial deposits to open an account for your heat/electric/water/etc…

Some stay and rebuild because they still want to live there. Some stay and rebuild probably because they’re going to be paying for that real estate anyway so it’s economically more feasible than trying to pay off the old note AND relocate elsewhere.

That makes sense. Perhaps one way the government could help people after a disaster is to find ways to cut red tape to make it easier for people to transition to some other, presumably, safer location. As in your example, if your home is destroyed in [insert natural disaster], you can just walk away from it without the damage to your credit, and insurance just pays the lender for the property, and the homeowner for whatever possessions were insured (car, jewelry, etc.) and then everyone walks away. I am sure it’s much more complicated, but it does seem like things could be done to ease people away from continuing to rebuild in high-risk areas by limiting their financial damage.

Bad things happen to people for all kinds of reasons. I favor a safety net of a few large programs (such as basic income, universal health care…) and am opposed to dozens to hundreds of specialized safety net programs. Thus I am strongly opposed to to the idea that if your house is destroyed by a flood you should be compensated by the government–but that if your house burns down you should not.

Part of the reason it’s the government paying for rebuilds after a flood is that the private market got out of the flood insurance game decades again, but you can still get private insurance for fire. That tells you something about the risks involved.

Great idea. But:

Made up scenario, but all with elements of residences I’ve actually owned with insurance I’ve actually had:

My house cost e.g. $200K and the day before the disaster was sellable for $250K. I have a $180K mortgage. My insurance will pay $100K if the house is destroyed. It will cost $50K to bulldoze the wrecked house, haul away the debris, and reset the land ready for a fresh building. If the disaster was flood, my insurance is limited to $0; IOW insurance pays nothing. If earthquake, it’s limited to $10K = 10% of the insured value. Other perils, like fire, are full coverage = $100K, but damage by wind is explicitly excluded = $0 coverage.

My home’s contents are insured separately, but with lots of exclusions. Like $500 max for all electronic devices. Hell, my phone costs double that and that’s before you consider my TV, stereo, media toys, wife & kids’ phones, TVs, computers, etc., etc., etc.

Now who pays how much? As between insurance, homeowner, mortgage initiator, mortgage investor, insurance company(s), and government(s) who is out how much after Mother Nature finishes having her way with this house & stuff? Note that flood, wind, and earthquake, or anything else each have different answers. Or after an electrical fault or kids playing with matches burns the place (and contents) to ashes?

Not so easy, is it?

As I mentioned - its complicated. But the current system where people are anchored to their property only encourages them to rebuild in the same place, likely with federal low-interest disaster loans. What changes could be made to discourage rebuilding in a high-risk area, that wont severely damage people financially? Incentivise them to move. Local governments could also play a role thru zoning changes. Yes, there are no easy answers.

The answer lies in economics. Make insurance cover all hazards, no exceptions, full replacement cost coverage, and be mandatory for all real and personal property. Very quickly large fractions of our country would become financially uninhabitable. Certainly where I live would become so. Then people with any means would move. The rest would need to be paid to move. The hundreds of trillions of dollars of now-useless empty infrastructure would simply be abandoned to roving bandits. And the eventual rising sea.

But at least a few hundred people a year would not die in natural disasters.

Part of what shackles people to a location is debt for real estate. Trying to rebuild from nothing sucks. Trying to rebuild from less than nothing, because you still owe tens of thousands on something that no longer exists, is hellish.

If there was just some way for that debt to be forgiven without burdening people further with a black mark on their credit history that alone would help people rebuild their lives and make it easier for them to relocate.

True. But “forgiven” really translates as “somebody else pays.” Which somebody else(s) and why?

Ultimately 100% of economic value comes from human labor. We will all pay for Mother Nature’s rampages in the form of higher taxes, higher insurance premiums, higher interest rates, or reduced investment returns.

A bit like with pollution, where there is no magic “away” where you can send pollution to dispose of it, with financial loss there’s no magic “away” you can send it to: you can only dilute it among a larger pool of people.

I don’t understand why making people whole after a disaster will encourage them to relocate. I think it sends the message, “this is fine, just rebuild and continue with your life”. And I’m dubious that is generally cheaper to stay than to leave.

If there are places that are just too risky for permanent dwellings (and there are) then i think rebuilding should be illegal, or at least a lot more painful than relocating.

For that matter, if everyone knows the government/insurance will make them whole, there’s no disincentive to buy new properties built in risky places. If you know you will take a loss if there’s a storm, or a wildfire, or… then you might not build in that floodplain, or you might be a lot more careful about that fire break, or…

Guy A and Bank B make a deal. Guy A wants a house, Bank B wants money; so Bank B gives Guy A some money now, Guy A buys a beachfront house in Florida, and everyone is happy.

But, oh no! Disaster has struck! Sea level rise has made Guy A’s beachfront property unsafe for human habitation! What should be done?

A) Guy A eats the whole loss. He either keeps paying the mortgage on his underwater property (pun intended), or he stops and is stained by the black mark of bankruptcy.

B) Bank B eats the whole loss. Bank B just doesn’t get paid back - thanks to a government program Guy A can just cut and run.

Obviously we can also talk about hybrid options. But just for a moment, let us assess the extremes.

Your post strongly implies that Option A is more “right” than Option B. Why?

Both Guy A and Bank B made a decision: that this loan, backed by some Florida beachfront property, is a good deal. Bank B, being in the business of giving out home loans, was in a MUCH better place to assess risk when this deal was made. Guy A, in our scenario, isn’t some property manager or house flipper. He’s your average Joe, and this is one of a handful of times in his life he will go through this process. Bank B, on the other hand, is full of people who do this for a living.

Since Bank B knows what it is doing when it comes to real estate loans, and Guy A does not, why is it that when Bank B’ assessment fails, Guy A should be the one bearing the full consequences?

Right now, many disaster relief programs basically say “here’s the money you need to rebuild; you may only spend it on rebuilding the property as it was, no improvements”.

In theory, this is understandable. What they don’t want is a bunch of people using disaster relief to get the government to redo their kitchen.

In practice, it means we aren’t using the opportunity to rebuild, because we are too worried that some poor people will get one over on us.

I thought the suggestion was

C) insurance pays for the full loss

Or

D) the government pays for the full loss.

I agree that the bank is in a good position to judge whether a loan is a good deal, and there is public benefit to having the bank be on the hook for at least part of the loss. Which they are if the homeowner declares bankruptcy, of course.

If insurers are allowed to charge a fair risk premium, or allowed to deny coverage, they are also in a good position to discourage risky property deals. But often they aren’t allowed to do either of those.

“The government” spreads the pain very broadly, and their only lever is making it illegal to build. Or charging so much for flood insurance (which is run by a federal program since a single storm can be too much for the insurance industry to pay) that it becomes cost prohibitive to build.

Govt flood insurance premiums are coming more into line with expected costs, but they’ve been too low for years.

I knew a guy, on another message board, who bragged that the government redid his kitchen after his house was damaged by hurricane Sandie. That really pissed me off.

He’s since moved to Vegas, where he’s probably maintaining a lawn.