Are statistics kept on this? I searched for it, but my searches seem to indicate that they are not.
Thanks and sorry about starting yet another gun thread,
Rob
Paul Blackman is a retired criminologist and former research coordinator for the NRA Institute for Legislative Action. “Personally, I think your safest bet is to say that no one knows, but that the vast majority of crime guns come from some other source than gun shows,” he told us.
Now remember, some crime is committed by what were up to then honest law abiding citizens, often these are called ‘crimes of rage”. No doubt a good % of those are guns bought or acquired legally.
In general, it seems **most **guns used by career criminals are stolen.
Ten to 15 percent, according to this article.
Record-keeping on this issue seems a bit fuzzy.
Interestingly, in Canada where the gun control laws are quite strict and handguns are extremely difficult to acquire legally - during the debate on long-gun restration the number quoted was 84% of guns used in crimes are illegal, not licensed. The other 16% are legally acquired, mainly those nice quiet types who showed no sign of trouble but decided it was time to go and took one or two people with them, usually domestic crimes.
Of course, the number of pistol crimes would probably be much lower if it were not so easy to get a gun just across the border, where millions drive across every year. Outside the big cities, we have a lot of stabbings. Oddly enough, even with the strong controls on pistols, I have seen very few news items about rifles sawed to pistol length (other than sawed-off shotguns). Presumably bad guys that really want weapons can still find pistols.
Just want to note that “illegally acquired” does not necessarily have any relation to stolen.
Exactly. Your typical criminal (ie, someone who would not pass a background check) gets his gun in one of three ways:
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Purchased illegally, (on a streetcorner or in a bar or something) from God-knows-what source.
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Stolen during a burglary.
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Purchased via a “straw buyer.” The criminal gets a friend/relative/shill who can pass a background check to buy the gun for him.
This wouldn’t necessarily be an illegal purchase. A criminal could answer a classified ad, and if the seller did not possess an FFL and didn’t know the criminal was a criminal, the purchase would be legal. Of course, once a felon takes possession of it, he has committed a crime. Many people who sell guns privately claim that they will get a copy of the purchaser’s DL or something. The only times I have purchased one this way, I just paid cash (and once, I was 19 buying a pistol). I would like to know how many criminals obtain their guns through this method, versus buying them through a fence, versus stealing them.
Thanks,
Rob
As sweeteviljesus said, this isn’t necessarily an illegal purchase. Individuals are allowed to sell their weapons to other people without background checks.
This makes me think of a way to make some side money. Purchase guns at Walmart using my squeaky-clean background. Sell them in classified ads for 20% markup. Non-criminals would think I’m crazy since they can buy the same gun at retail. But criminals would pay the markup. I wouldn’t ask any questions (seeing as I don’t have to) and make an easy 20%. As long as the guy doesn’t mention he’s a criminal, I think I would be in the clear. I’d probably want to keep records of the classified ads to show I sold the weapon if it was ever used in a crime.
If you are “in the business of” selling firearms, you need an FFL. “In the business of” isn’t (or wasn’t the last time I checked) well defined, but I think it would cover your business model. Anyway, stolen guns can probably be had for less than 20% over retail if you know people.
Rob
Its an illegal sale, regardless of whether or not the seller did anything illegal. The buyer has committed a crime by purchasing the gun.
Is there a difference in the law between an illegal sale and an illegal purchase?
If you’re regular citizen (not a licensed dealer) you can legally sell a gun you own to anyone you want, even if that person can’t legally purchase a gun (and knows he can’t) - he’s not going to tell you, and you have no way to check - this is The Gun Show Loophole.
There isn’t literally a “gun show loophole”. Rather individuals are allowed to sell guns privately, and without tax, to other individuals.
Now, at gunshows, there are “private sellers” that rent several tables and sell dozens if not more firearms “privately.” One could, IMHO, make a pretty obvious argument that these people are not really “private” sellers but for all intents and purposes are firearm dealers. But for now that’s the law. I’m simplifying but you get the drift…
FWIW, nearly everyone I have seen with a table at a show (if they were selling guns) was an FFL holder. The tables that have two or three random guns on them are private. If people are really selling dozens a year, especially if they taking on new inventory, they are breaking the law.
Rob
That seems to run counter to what was discussed elsewhere on gun shows et al. How many guns are people allowed to sell per year without being a dealer?
AIUI, it’s not about the number.
So if somebody buys, say, 200 guns in one year as part of enhancing his personal collection, and then next year, thinks he needs to buy another 200, if he sells off last year’s guns to make room for this year’s, that’s not dealing, it’s just a hobby.
Got it.
As a member of a fugitive squad for 5 years, I arrested hundreds and hundreds of felons. It’s virtually the only group we dealt with. I’d say 90% of them possessed weapons at the time of arrest, and all of them were stolen or obtained illegally.
I understand anecdotes ≠ data, but criminals, and felons in particular do not want to be associated with a weapon, and do not go to gun stores or shows to buy them.
I once purchased gun A from an FFL. Filled out form 4473 and went on with life.
Later, I traded gun A for gun B back at the same store. A couple of years later, gun A is found next to dead body A in Detroit. Detroit PD calls Taurus, gets pointed to my store as original retailer, their records show me as purchaser, and Detroit has my local county homicide guy give me a call to follow the trail. I provided the date and info so they could keep tracking the gun.
Criminals do not want this phone call or paper trail.
That’s why they steal guns from under mattresses or from trucks in Bass Pro parking lot with Glock stickers on the window.
I’m sure one or two record-free clowns have bought and used guns in crimes in history, but like CCW holders committing crimes, the number is vanishingly small.
There is no gun show loophole. It is disingenuous at best, and a god-damn lie at worst to use this term.
If your friend Bob owns a Chevy dealership, and allows you to park your used car in the lot for a day with a for sale sign on it, it’s not a dealership loophole. It’s simply a private sale like any other that occur millions of times per day nationwide.
If you want to run a check or register all gun sales, that’s another topic, and you should suggest it and work towards it. I’m all for it.
But please don’t call a legal action something else just because you don’t like or understand it.
Moved to Great Debates.
Colibri
General Questions Moderator
The ATF is not known as a “friend to gun owners” , and thus they would laugh this off and arrest the guy.