In the novelization of Star Trek III: The Search for Spock, it was specifically stated that since the Excelsior-class starships were so new and big and spiffy, they would have not only the captain (Styles, in the case of Excelsior), but also a captain of Engineering (Scotty), and captains of Security, Sciences, Medical, etc. Fortunately they didn’t keep up that bizarre practice.
Very small USN warships have, over history, even been commanded by ensigns, and lieutenant JGs (as JFK was when he commanded PT-109). There were even midshipmen placed in command of prize crews now and then during the War of 1812 and Civil War.
I don’t understand this. Star Trek is fiction, and the designation “captain” is merely an arbitrary label. It doesn’t defy any kind of rationality to propose a fictional navy in which all members of the crew are “captain” by rank or custom or mode of address and chains of command and assignments are distinguished in some other manner. Why do you think it “bizarre” and what misfortune do you fear if they had kept it up?
To me those were boats. Anything smaller then a Frigate is not a ship. Carrier prejudice showing I guess.
As to the many Captains, if the crew size was huge, well into the 1000s and considering that the crew appeared to start at ensign and only use officer ranks, then many Department heads with a rank of Capt. was not unreasonable and the ship should have potentially been Captain’ed by the Star Fleet rank of a Commodore.
I mean I was on a ship with 4 men with the Rank of Captain. Now our crew size was 5000 but still. We had those wonderful 11 ranks technically below Ensign.
But, as has earlier been mentioned, Starfleet appears to be strongly based on historical U.S. and Royal Navy practice, in which it is customary that there only be one captain on each ship, to emphasize the unique authority of the commanding officer and to avoid confusion. It was bizarre, IMHO, because it was unprecedented both in Starfleet practice and, as far as I know, in all of humanity’s naval history. It has not since been repeated or even alluded to in any later incarnation of Star Trek. There have been much larger and more advanced Starfleet ships shown since the Excelsior in later ST series and movies, and none of them have had “captains” of various shipboard departments, indicating that there was nothing so distinctive about those ships that they necessarily needed to have them.
Do you rethink your comments in light of What Exit’s experience?
It seems to me we disagree on the implications of the term “bizarre.” It seems to be hyperbole in the case of something that is fictional that is merely unprecedented in real life. It’s not irrational; it’s not impractical; it’s not impossible; it’s not surreal; it’s not anything that would make it completely unworkable in a fictional environment.
Furthermore, while Star Trek did take a significant proportion of its cultural cues from modern American practice, it did so, in my opinion, merely as convenience, and made no commitment to adhering to them. Where it diverges from real life is in fact a privilege of fiction.
I give full credit to What Exit? and his actual naval experience, which I don’t have. But all things being equal, I favor consistency in fictional realms, and other than in STIII, Starfleet has never had more than one captain per ship. I still see no reason why it should. :: shrugs ::
Although it might not have occurred in this case, had he accepted a junior level commission, don’t senior NCOs often receive higher pay than recently commissioned junior officers? Also I think the nature of the work would have been a factor, or at least the perception of it. From what I’ve seen, line officers’ work is perceived as being supervisory and administrative. (Presumably this isn’t the case for specialists like doctors and JAG attorneys.) By contrast, while NCOs also perform some administrative and supervisory functions, it’s still more “hands-on”. I’ve never been in any service, so my information is anecdotal.
I honestly don’t know. There are some compensations for Sea Duty and dependents but I only did a 4 year hitch. I don’t recall those going from enlisted to officer getting any extra pay. However, everyone I knew who did make the jump, did so before they made Chief (E7). In fact I don’t even recall a First Class Petty Officer (E6) making the leap. It was generally E4s & E5s the completed there degree while in that made the jump to Ensign. Officer training was rare anyway.
E-div had a Lt JG that had been an E5 then Ensign and then Lt JG while he was our Division Officer. We also had a complete ass of a Warrant Officer who had also only went as far as E5. Whatever it takes to be a Chief, seems to keep these people Chiefs. Part of it is they get paid better and command more respect and usually they are closing in on retirement eligibility already as with the Navy you can retired by 38 with fair ease and start that second career.
E9’s the Master Chiefs, had some pretty nice retirement options.
As I was getting out, I was eligible for E5 but only if I extended, the minimum extension was 2 years I believe and I wanted to start my life. I had enough of the Navy. But once you put in over 12 years, you might as well stick it out another 8 for those retirement benes.
I can speak only for the Army, but the same is probably true service-wide. Yes, NCOs with many years in can make more than newly commissioned O1s. NCOs are in supervisory roles. The grades for the Army are E1 (private), E2 (private first-class), E3 and up to E9, but if they are in a supervisory position, they are called corporals and sergeants. If they are in a specialist field, they are called specialist first-class, specialist second-class, etc.
That is really odd, but that was not the guy. I got to the ship after he left. There must have been 2 WWII era Master Chiefs on the Ranger in 1985. I arrived in September 1985 and we went out to sea almost immediately.
The Command Master Chief I got to meet and talk to did not retire off the Ranger but went on to be the Fleet.
He was followed by the a Master Chief from E-Div who was another long time vet but was not close to 40 years service yet. This CMC tried to convince me to participate in the Wog ceremony but accepted my reasons for refusing and allowed me to stand watches during the event.
ETA: I am a huge Calvin and Hobbs fan, I probably would have remembered CMC Hobbs is I met him.
As I understand it, they did away with most of the Specialist ranks, and now it’s pretty much the default rank to assume when you make E-4 (Corporal still exists, unlike the Air Force Buck Sergeant which went away in the 90s, but those guys seem a bit rare in my experience).
But yeah, you get paid based on two things in the military (well, three things if you include allowances and bonuses): Paygrade and Time In Service. If you enlisted for six or seven years and then go to ROTC or OTS and get a commission, you will be making more than the Second Lieutenant fresh out of ROTC or the Academy because you have more time in service than he does.
This also applies in the matter of line and staff officers. The captain of a ship, even if he holds a fairly low rank is always a line officer and while onboard ship outranks any staff officer. For example, the skipper may be a lieutenant or JG while the ranking medical officer in charge of sick bay could be a commander or captain, but the skipper still has authority over him.
SS
I was in the Army half a century ago. Didn’t realize that Specialists no longer exist. I liked the sound of “speedy four” much better than sergeant, but if I understand your post correctly, sergeants no longer exist. If you are an E4, you are an E4.
This is something of a high-jack but I’ll provide some details for the army…
The sergeants very much exist. Specialists at grades above E4 no longer exist. The current enlisted grade/rank breakdown is:
E1 Private
E2 Private
E3 Private First Class
E4 Specialist OR Corporal (SPC is not an NCO, CPL is; CPLs tend to be in combat arms)
E5 Sergeant
E6 Staff Sergeant
E7 Sergeant First Class
E8 Master Sergeant / First Sergeant
E9 Sergeant Major / Command Sergeant Major
A couple other points… unit manning rosters will list a number of positions based on occupational specialty (MOS) and rank. There is flexibility in meeting the rank requirements of a slot - in the reserves it is fairly common for someone to fill a slot 1-2 paygrades higher than their current rank. This is seen as a sign of confidence from the chain of command and can help with promotion boards. I am not certain how common this is in the regular army.
Pay is primarily determined by grade and time in service (pay charts are publicly available), but there can be additional incentive pay for certain qualifications - e.g. foreign language proficiency, jump status, etc. Elite soldiers (SF, etc.) are more likely to qualify for several of these monthly bonuses.
I don’t understand why they got rid of these specialist grades. I was reading about them on Wikipedia. It originally went all the way up to Specialist 9 or “Master Specialist.” The insignia had three chevrons below it and two arches above it, like an upside-down Sergeant First Class with the Specialist eagle in the center. What was so bad about having these advanced specialist ranks?
StarTrek and StarWars stuff notwithstanding, a review of my own personal, dog-eared and somewhat moth-eaten copy of the Manual for Courts-Martial, United States (1969 Revised Edition) discloses this language:
“A commissioned officer or warrant officer may not be reduced in grade by any court-martial….A commissioned officer or a warrant officer may be punished by a punitive separation from the service when convicted by a general court-martial. The separation from the service of commissioned officers, including commissioned warrant officers, when adjudged by the sentence of a general court-martial, shall be by dismissal. The separation from the service of all other warrant officers by sentence of a general court-martial shall be by dishonorable discharge….Only a general court-martial may sentence a commissioned officer or a warrant officer to confinement…A commissioned officer or warrant officer may not be sentenced to hard labor without confinement in any case.”
It is my recollection that if an officer, commissioned or warranted, is sentenced to confinement at hard labor (as opposed to some sort of long term arrest in quarters) he must also be separated from the service first and that he serves his confinement as a civilian. I know of no officer sentenced to comfinement at hard labor.
General officers and flag officers are a different breed of cat. I think generals/ admirals hold rank/grade at the pleasure of the President (although Congress is involved in the appointment) and that the President can bust them or send them home (retired or awaiting orders) pretty much whenever and for whatever reason the President wishes.
Officers can be administratively separated and can be subjected to non-judicial punishment (Article 15) --If so don’t plan on ever getting another promotion and expect an admin separation for being passed over for promotion.