Lifeson a 9.9? I like Rush a lot, but most people who speak of Lifeson as a guitarist rate him as competent. I certainly don’t see him in Steve Howe, Eric Clapton, Jimmy Page or Steve Morse territory.
As for King Crimson, I would say that the most technically adept lineup was Belew / Bruford / Fripp / Levin. Most of the other line-ups often had some dead-weight in the mix (Greg Lake and John Wetteland come to mind). Cartooniverse, Levin and Bruford had lots of prior experience together (although I’m probably telling you something you already knew). And ABWH is one of my favorite “Yes” albums.
I agree with this idea. Sometimes the instrumental tricks that seem the most odd or difficult don’t, IMO, really advance the musical idea very much. For example, IIRC Adrian Belew was known, during his King Krimson phase (viz. Discipline), for being able to make his guitar sound like all sorts of things including raging elephants, but you know, well, so what. Not to disparage his ability on the instrument generally, which I’m sure is on a higher plane than I could hope to reach, but things of that sort seem extra-musical. I’m reminded of an interview with Devo’s lead guitarist, in which he said he wanted to make his guitar sound like farts. Ooooooooo…kay.
**Genesis ** (classic lineup)
Peter Gabriel (vocals) - 7.5 (I think he hit his peak long after he left the band)
Phil Collins (drums) - 8
Tony Banks (keyboards) - 8.5
Steve Hackett (guitar) - 10 (Steve’s at the top of my underrated guitarist list)
Mike Rutherford (bass) - 2 Overall rating: 7.2
**Genesis ** (later lineup)
Phil Collins (vocals) - 6.5 (he was actually a better vocalist than Gabriel but he was way too overexposed in the 80’s, so I gotta ding him a couple)
Tony Banks (keyboards) - 8.5
Mike Rutherford (bass) - 2
Chester Thompson (drums) - 8.5 (it must have been difficult for a funk/r&b drummer to learn how to play British prog-rock)
Daryl Steurmer (guitar) - 7 Overall rating: 6.5
Shoeless, I don’t think Thompson played prog-rock drums, and it added a different dimension to Genesis’ concerts for the better. But that’s my opinion. I wouldn’t call Hackett a 10, but he would be a high 8 / low 9. Phil was a pedestrian drummer, IMO. I do remember Bruce Hornsby calling him a human metronome for his ability to keep time for long periods. While 2 is harsh for Rutherford, I’ll agree he was nothing spectacular on bass or guitar. Neither was Steurmer, but he could parrot Hackett better.
Speaking of Chester Thompson, some of Zappa’s bands are way up there virtuoso-wise. The ones with the crazy trombone-vibes-whatever else sound. Zappa has also recorded one of the finest gitbox solos ever: the one in Son of Orange County from Roxy and Elsewhere, so he is a virtuoso his own self.
These things always come down to Rush and Yes. I agree that Alex Lifeson is the odd man out there. He does some interesting things that are complicated as hell (and is credited by the others as the primary music writer) but the other two stand out so much he fades into the woodwork.
As for Geddy Lee’s singing you’d be surprised. While he started off as a screamer he worked hard at it and is a fairly talented singer now. He has a limited range and it’s an odd one (very high for a male) but within it he hits his notes pretty well.
And seeing him try to balance bass, singing, keyboards and effects back in the 1980s was astonishing. Now it’s all done live with sequencers.
As for this:
While I stand next to no one in my admiration of Queen (in high school I went by ‘Freddie’) let me point out that Freddie was in almost no way a competent musician. While he could play the piano he was constantly having to reteach himself parts of songs because he couldn’t be bothered to practice or even attempt to remember. During the later years (1984 and on) Queen travelled with an additional keyboard player who played most of the piano stuff that wasn’t ‘signature’. Freddie would play, for example, ‘Bohemian Rhapsody’ but wouldn’t play others that weren’t in the front of the mix.
Also, while he had an excellent singing voice when they started by 1980 he’d largely destroyed it with alcohol and smoking.
I agree with the 80’s King Crimson lineup (Fripp/Belew/Bruford/Levin), and I was wondering when the Roxy-vintage Zappa group would come up. Zappa’s 80’s bands were pretty good, too, but suffered (IMHO) from FZ’s comparatively sterile music in that period. But c’mon… he had EACH of Belew, Steve Vai, and Mike Keneally at various times in the 80’s, and was a killer guitarist himself. He also had enlisted the help of Jean-Luc Ponty, George Duke, the Fowler brothers…
Yes is the group Bruford left to go play with King Crimson. I agree that Yes (esp. A-B-W-H-S) was outstanding but my jaw still drops at some of the Crim stuff.
Yeah - sarcasm ;). That’s my understanding on how he originally got that nickname, anyway.
Of course the ability to play fast doesn’t define virtuosity. I believe Frank Zappa himself specifically disavowed the status of a virtuoso guitarist, because to him a virtuoso was someone who could play anything ( in the context of their specialty ) and Zappa couldn’t do that ( he didn’t consider himself much of a rhythm guitarist for example ).
I got to thinking about this later and thought maybe I short-changed Chester. Anybody who has worked with Zappa (except maybe Aynsley Dunbar) should probably be at least a 9. Zappa was an amazing musician and generally surrounded himself with the same.
Rutherford isn’t that bad of a bass player. I’m not suggesting he should play lead guitar, however! Tony Banks is very close to a ten on keyboards. He isn’t as flamboyant as Keith Emerson, but Tony Banks helped keep the band together. Plus, his influence was needed on Duke/Abacab/We Can’t Dance. Phil’s vocals were so different from Gabriel’s. They’re both amazingly talented. A Trick of the Tail and Wind and Wuthering are different albums than the later ones. Still, Phil did a great job on vocals and he added to live Genesis when he’d run back and play drums along with Thompson. Phil as a drummer helped carry some of the later Genesis.
Steurmer is a nice guy, but he is not Steve Hackett. Hackett’s departure hurt Genesis.
I’d have to agree that John Wetteland wasn’t a great bass player- but you have to admit, he had a pretty effective fastball.
John Wetton , on the other hand, was an outstanding bassist. Much better than Greg Lake, who (lest we forget) was originally a guitarist with the Gods, and who’d only dabbled in bass a bit before joining King Crimson. Lake improved substantially over the years, but was still a relative novice as a bassist for “In the Court of the Crimson King,” the only KC album on which he played bass.
In any case, rating King Crimson is a nightmare because they changed lineups so often that it’s hard to keep up with the various members. They had some remarkable musicians (Fripp, Mel Collins, Tony Levin) and some very weak ones (Boz Burrell on bass, David Cross on violin).
Moreover, being a musician involves a wide range of skills. In a live setting, Carl Palmer is the most dynamic drum soloist I’ve ever seen- on the other hand, he couldn’t have played “Ticket to Ride” any better than Ringo did (and. perhaps, not as well). And Ringo would be the first to tell you he was no virtuoso on drums.
Yeah, when he recorded Barcelona (AKA: the most embarassing rock/opera song of all time) he was pretty much dead but in his prime I’d like to hear a operetic mezzo who could keep up with him. They could, of course, but I’d like to hear them.
Man, I’m regretting the day that the castrato became obsolete. I’ve heard one and, since it was a cylinder, I had to imagine most of it but my in my imaginings it would be worth the surgery, for somebody else. All of that strength with the high notes but without the falsetto? True art and who, besides me, wouldn’t be willing to sacrfice his balls for that art?
I think Morello has more skill at creating sounds than he does in ‘regular’ guitar playing. Which is not to say I think he’s a bad guitarist. However, what I heard of the new Audioslave record makes me think he’s kind of out of tricks; I felt like I’d heard all those noises before. His stuff felt a lot fresher and more inventive in the '90s.
All of that strength with the high notes but without the falsetto? True art and who, besides me, wouldn’t be willing to sacrfice his balls for that art?