I happened to catch part of “Evan Almighty” on TV yesterday. In it, God appears to Evan and commands him to build an Ark. Naturally, God is invisible to everyone else.
So, because his wife and family love him, they go along with this bit of wackiness.
This started me to thinking - is there anyone who honestly believes that God is talking to somebody else? If someone said that God told him to do something “crazy,” (or anti-social) would you believe him?
Nothing. Religions have a special place in our society because they’re old and influential and popular. They form such a core part of most human civilizations that they’re beyond questions, and in more cultures than not, historically, people who examined religion skeptically and rejected it were killed for it.
Scientology seems like a ridiculous cult because it has only been around for a few decades - if it was around 1000 years ago and became dominant by becoming the dominant religious of an expansive culture - then we’d give scientology the same societal reverence that we now give “real” religions. Scientology is only treated differently because it hasn’t had time to build into our culture.
I think on some level, religious people think “for thousands of years people have believed this wholeheartedly, given their whole lives to serve this, died in the name of this, killed in the name of this, struggled with this, done great works with this - there’s no possible way it’s nonsense, right? It’s a pillar of humanity” and the reverence we give to religion is an important part of making religion seem plausible. Or, rather, to generate incredulity at the idea that the whole thing was based on nothing and somehow this nothing is one of the main drivers of humanity since the beginning of civilization.
As for your specific question - I don’t think most people apply scrutiny to their religious beliefs. So if George W Bush said God told him to invade Iraq, a lot of people think it’s literally true. But then if someone at their church said they had a vision, would they believe them? If some crank on the street was screaming doom and special messages from god, would they believe him? On what possible basis can they scrutinize between one person’s imaginary messages from god and another’s? Honestly, I think they just don’t think about it - they’ve evolved a defense mechanism to not think about it which gets them past these sort of hangups that crop up all the time. They just sort of let it all wash over them, and believe whatever feels good to believe at that moment.
Peer support. Things stop being crazy when everyone does them. A woman wearing pants 200 years ago would probably be considered a sign of mental instability.
Also the term ‘God’ is a loaded term, as that references the deity of the Abrahamic faiths. many other cultures have different deities. It is an unconscious way of saying that a deity and the deity of western and muslim culture happens to be true. But I think Abrahamic religions are based on Egyptian monotheistic religions. Either way, there are thousands of faiths and beliefs other than the western ones. Point being, saying ‘God spoke to me and wants me to do X’ is taken more seriously than saying ‘Loki spoke to me and wants me to do X’. Or Zeus. Or a tree.
Maybe. I’m not sure I know any personally, but there have been people who have done “crazy” things, like changed jobs, because they thought God was telling/calling them to do so. If the person is otherwise sane, competent, and level-headed, and if the thing they’re being called to do seems consistent with the God I believe in, I’m at least open to the possibility that they really are following God’s call.
Did you want people to answer this question, or the one in the thread title?
Either or both.
I’m just curious about what people consider the difference between religion and psychosis.
I think that for something to be considered a mental illness, it should have some impact on your ability to function as a person, both by yourself and in society. Does it affect your ability to form relationships, hold a job and support yourself, or to go about the business of keeping yourself otherwise healthy? If it does, then it’s something that one should try and get treatment to fix.
One big obvious difference is that religion is, to a large extent, communal while psychosis is individual. To be a religious person is to be a member of a community and a tradition.
Whatever else you may say about organized religion, the fact that it is organized clearly differentiates it from psychosis.
Just watched “Hacksaw Ridge” the other night. The story revolves around Lt. Duff, a religious dude who comes of age during WWII. The thrust of the story is that he has a sort of religious awakening at a young age after a fight with his younger brother. Drunk dad just sits there and watches them duke it out in the yard. Mom is all like, “Why are they fighting?” Dad takes a swig and says, “When did they ever need a reason?” But it escalates when young Duff whacks his brother in the head with a brick. Did he just kill his brother? Suddenly Dad is pissed, pandemonium, everybody is yelling, he’s going to get a whupping, and worst of all, he may have killed his brother. Devastating guilt. He sort of hides in a corner of the house with an illustrated poster featuring the 10 Commandments. While everyone is freaking out, he stares at the picture of Cain smashing Abel in the head with a rock, exactly like he has just done, Thou Shalt Not Kill.
So, he’s this sort of innocent rural guy who has a foundational experience of nearly killing his brother that puts the fear of God into him such that he will never engage in violence again. He couldn’t live with himself if he ever did. When the war breaks out, everybody enlists, including him. He figures he’ll serve as a medic. The Army isn’t exactly cool with this- he won’t touch a rifle, period. He gets mocked, he gets beat up, he gets courts martialled and misses his own wedding. Shrinks interview him, try to get him to change his mind, ask him if he is hearing voices or if God is telling him what to do. “No, I pray and like to think God is listening, but it isn’t like a real conversation.” (<- the answer to the OP btw, he just acts on what he believes, but isn’t hearing voices, and it never goes into whether he thinks the Earth is 6000 years old or any of that) But he won’t give in. Finally they are like, fuck it, let him be a medic, the commander says this question has already been decided and we can’t kick him out.
So he ends up with the troop at the battle for Okinawa. The Japs are fierce, it is a freaking bloodbath (doubly so because it is directed by Mel Gibson), and he scurries around trying to rescue the fallen comrades. He even helps out a few wounded Japs. He is just the nicest guy, but no matter what, he will not try to kill anybody, only try to help. The troop gets driven off the ridge by a counter attack, but Duff remains behind all night long, dragging wounded soldiers from the field and lowering them down the cliff with ropes, dodging the Japs. He rescues 75 men, receives the Medal of Honor.
It did not seem like the guy was delusional. He saw his drunk dad be a broken man after having to violate everything he’d believed in WWI. He doesn’t want to make the same mistake and end up the same way, difficult as it is. War is hell and madness but he wants to demonstrate that we don’t Really have to kill each other while also preserving his sanity as he sees it. God and his experiences are mixed up in it all and in the end he comes out a hero. Based on a true story, a good show whether or not you are a religious person.
The distinction is what caused a kerfuffle with Joy Behar of The View. She was taking a shot at Mike Pence, who said something about God telling him what to do, and Behar said “isn’t that a mental illness?”. Shitstorm of controversy: “View Hostess Says Religion is a Mental Illness.” Well, no. If Pence had said “I feel this is what God wants me to do”, nobody would have an issue. If he said he literally hears God’s voice: a lot of reasonable people, some of whom may be devoutly religious, would say he’s off his meds.
You’re starting with a presupposition that something actually isn’t talking to them. That’s an unproven assertion.
There may not be a lot of practical difference, but the major difference is in the underlying cause. Most mental illness is a neurophysiological disorder, but most religious delusions are induced by institutional teaching and conditioning and social reinforcement.
I think there is a clear way to tell the difference between religion and psychosis, or religion and stupidity, or religion and manipulation, but the clarity has costs to people’s pride.
All people - religious and non-religious - need to admit that God is a nickname for a human mental process, and that purely as a human mental process and in no other way, yes God exists.
All people - religious and non-religious - need to recognize that God metaphorically “speaks”, by producing wise and insightful thoughts that aren’t a direct linear result of daily experience.
All need to recognize that the God process is just as susceptible to mental illness as any other aspect of the mind.
And all MUST recognize that it is just as easy (if not easier) to lie about God than to lie about anything else, and that “God said it” is currently (and has always been) one of the primary tools of manipulators and abusers.
So, how do you tell if it’s God?
Easy - you don’t bother trying, because God is human and often wrong. You judge what God says on the merits of what’s being said, not by where it supposedly came from.
If I say I have a non-bird dinosaur in my garage, and you say I don’t, that’s an unproven assertion also. However the default is that extraordinary claims are not true unless there is extraordinary evidence. God could easily provide such. People saying that God told them to do stuff they probably want to do anyway is not extraordinary evidence.
In many if not almost all cases the delusion is shared with the community, and breaking away from the delusion is difficult and in some times and places fatal. So I wouldn’t call it a psychosis, just a survival tactic.
Not that much different from those believing in witches.
PTSD is a mental illness, and can be inflicted on anyone, regardless of their underlying neurophysiology.
What you’ve described here are individuals who are brainwashed through that teaching, conditioning, and social reinforcement.
They believe because they are terrified not to. Whether they are terrified of the finality of a death with no resurrection, or they are terrified of the idea of a life without a predefined purpose, or they are simply terrified that others may discover that they do not believe hard enough and socially ostracize them from their group, it is not a blief that they come to rationally, but a belief that they hold to out of a desperation of what will happen if they don’t.
You can be delusional but not devoutly religious. But it is impossible to be devoutly religious and not delusional. That’s pretty much the only difference.
To be fair, you can also be cynical, and claim devout religiousness in order to gain the impunity that religious beliefs hold, gain power over others who are delusional believers, and gain vast material wealth (tax free) by fleecing those who believe that giving to you is giving to god.
They are not delusional, just assholes.
When people talk about hearing God tell them something, it very seldom means that they physically heard a voice, or even thought that they did. God is a spirit, not a physical being.
Well, if the things people claimed that God told them weren’t hateful, bigoted, negative and/or pure selfish greed, then people might be less inclined to call them mentally ill asshats or doubt that God actually told them these things.
The Christian God says (11 times in the bible) to Love our Neighbors. He puts it above everything but loving him. Yet his worshippers (of which I used to be one) refuse to listen, especially American Evangelicals, who fall all over themselves to find reasons to hate.
I agree with this, and with the rest of your post. That’s why I said “most mental illness”, not “all”, particularly the most seriously debilitating kinds.
Do you have an authoritative cite for what God is, and how he communicates with us?