What should be done about Haiti?

It’s a good thought, but the problem here, and everywhere there is violence and desperation, is the guys with the guns are organized and are calling the shots. It’s not like the average fed-up Haitian can just start rallying his neighbors and start a revolution - that’d be a quick way to end-up dead.

Perhaps one way to get a hold of the situation is to somehow legitimize the gangs and start working with them to stabilize security, aid, and resources. I am thinking similar to how Colombia came out of their drug war.

If that’s the case, then somebody needs to arm and train the locals so they can defend themselves and take out the heads of the organized gangs. That’s what I mean by a revolution. I’m sure the US and other countries have provided arms and training to people trying to overthrow corrupt governments at one point or another.

I don’t think trying to work with the gangs will get you anywhere. They have no incentive or reason to work with outsiders. They’re probably fairly happy with the way things are going at the moment.

I’m sorry, what is the difference between “armed and trained locals” and “organized gangs trying to overthrow the corrupt government”? Seriously.

If history is any guide doing something like that is just trading one strongman for another.

I am not sure how the US avoided it. I guess we are lucky that Washington, when asked to become (effectively) king of the US refused. Most would not have walked away from that.

El Salvador (I think) has had great success by imprisoning most of its young men. I mean mass incarceration of young men. And it has worked to make the country much safer. But it is draconian.

Then consider Mexico which is largely controlled by cartels. Its government is ineffective. Its police almost completely co-opted by criminals.

Not easy problems to find solutions to.

I agree. Haiti isn’t the U.S.'s problem to solve.

Haitian Prime Minister Ariel Henry announced early Tuesday that he would resign once a transitional presidential council is created, capitulating to international pressure that seeks to save the country overwhelmed by violent gangs that some experts say have unleashed a low-scale civil war.

Henry made the announcement hours after officials including Caribbean leaders and U.S. Secretary of State Antony Blinken met in Jamaica to urgently discuss a solution to halt Haiti’s spiraling crisis.

What are the chances of a transitional council being formed from a bunch of gangs? (I really do not know…this just feels like a dodge…hope I am wrong).

I can’t imagine how horrible it is for the women there right now.

MHO: We should stay out of it.

A UN multi national intervention has already been tried in 1994.

Jimmy Carter was sent by President Clinton to negotiate.

The intervention didn’t bring long term change or stability.

I think it could work if a government was established and supported long-term by the UN. It would require a reputable police force to hunt down and arrest the gang members. That could trigger civil war. Haiti is a very violent country.

This could take a decade or more commitment to reestablish a middle class economy with good jobs. Get people educated.

I wouldn’t support the US doing this alone. It would have to be a UN coalition that supplied peacekeepers.

Women, the elderly and disabled, and children always have it the worst in a war zone. TBH, it’s probably not much worse than what they usually face on a day to day basis.

When Donald Trump tried to do illegal things, the people that worked for him mostly refused and obeyed the laws and the Constitution. When Xi Jinping wants to do some illegal thing, like arresting the guy who lead the group voting against Xi’s continuing rulership, most people just bow and do it even though it goes against the laws and publicly stated positions of the nation.

The reason why nation building is so problematic is that nearly everyone assumes that stable government comes from a framework - the right rules, the right laws, etc. - and nothing else.

The US isn’t lower on the corruption scale because we have laws against corruption. Nations famous for corruption also have those laws but it works in America because Americans are raised to think that you should work faithfully for your employer and accept the wage that you’ve been given. That’s something that has come to us through a long path of historical events and great thinkers that produced some culture, and that culture has been passed down from our predecessors to us.

Japan, in the 1850s was, culturally, closer to Renaissance Europe than it was to being like the Maori of the 1700s.

By the time of WWII, Japanese culture had pulled in and adopted a lot of European thought on governance, law, art, etc. They had already created a semi-functioning Republic. Destroying a lot of their physical stuff didn’t change the culture and they were ready and able to take in the US-imposed Constitution of Japan, without much issue. It jibed with their pre-existing modus-operandi well-enough.

But if you had a culture of people that rests on “The strong are right” and “The weak will be eaten and enslaved” - where even the losers in all of that still adhere to the correctness of the social laws - and try to tell them, “You should vote for who you think should be boss!” They’ll all just vote for the strongest, scariest mofo and he’s liable to continue running things for as long as he remains the strongest-scariest mofo on the island.

If you destroy a country that has a strong tradition of rule of law, of representative government, etc. then nationbuilding is easy. You rebuild their buildings, hold elections, and let them get back to what they were doing before.

If you conquer a country that’s full of people who don’t understand the difference between corrupt and faithful diligence in their duties, don’t understand putting law above force, etc. then any true nationbuilding means that you first need to change their culture. That means replacing pretty much everyone in a position of power with someone with the “right” culture - all of the teachers, all of the police, everyone in government, etc. Eventually, you might start bringing in the people who grew up under this regime into these positions but it will take a lifetime or two before you can fully remake the country.

And, through all of that, how do you separate “right” culture and “wrong” culture? Sure, by the views of what is good and bad in our culture, the way that things are going in Haiti are bad. They have low education, high murder rates, poor equality between men and women, etc. But likewise, I might personally point at all the potheads in America and say, “Well, pot smoking is bad and these people are all smoking it. Clearly, I have the right to stop them all.” Maybe those people all disagree. Why am I right?

The only way around any of this is to make one assumption, which is that the Humanist cultural idea - that people should be able to have access to the information that they need to make a decision and to be able to make that decision, freely on their own, without coercion - is “right”. If we can reasonably give the people of Haiti a sense for what options are in the world, how those options work, and give them the choice of whether they want that option (protecting their vote from coercion) then we will move or not move as they’ve requested. And if they say that they’re happy as-is, then we leave them alone.

In any case news reports are that a number of segments in Haiti, both gang and non-gang, are already raising the not unreasonable point of “exactly who of these people in Jamaica and Puerto Rico negotiated that with someone in Haiti?”

Of course, part of the problem is that in an anarchy, there’s nobody to negotiate with. The “establishment” political leaders are right out but then who? We can assume the gang warlords in Port-au-Prince would want to make whoever of them winds up on top to be sitting at the table, but has anyone, and can he deliver anything from anyone else? And then you’d have to ask if whoever’s minding the store over at Cap Haitien on the other side of the country will be interested in following the lead of a Port-au-Prince gang lord – this was brought up in a radio broadcast I heard yesterday, it’s not all uniform throughout the country who’s fighting who or what aid is getting or not getting through.

In any “nation rebuilding” intervention the risks include that you’ll wind up with a “restored republic” that is just a propped-up fiction and it all goes to pieces once the prop is removed. Or that then begins a “contained” civil war that carries on while the word “recognizes” a government that is barely holding on to downtown capital city. Or that you will have to pick one particular warlord is the guy who can at least bring order, and then be damned to have to help him put everyone in their place, reverting to the old intervention model.

It seems like the best hope is the next generation. Setup a stable government and focus on the children. Get them educated and working. Gradually educated leaders would emerge. Some would bolster the economy and others join the government.

It could work long term. Except I can’t imagine NATO or any country is committed enough to spend thirty or more years on nation building. Especially considering the violent resistance that would last for many years.

Propping up a government for a few years and then leaving is doomed to fail. Imho

How does none of this seem to affect the Dominican Republic? Looking at a map it seems dead easy for this to spill over into them whether it is refugees or gangs seeking shelter.

I read the Dominican Republic refused to let Haiti’s Prime Minister Ariel Henry from landing as he tried to return to Haiti (his absence seemed to allow the gangs to rise-up and he very much wanted back in but cannot land at Haiti’s one airport that could take his plane). It seems the DR wants no part of this.

As a brutal slave colony, where slaves worked wearing heavy iron masks to ensure they didn’t eat any of the sugar being grown and where people were covered with honey and immobilized next to anthills as punishment for infractions or for not meeting quota.

Not that easy. There is a border, and it is shut down/restricted right now, meaning they are not letting random refugees, gangsters, or really anyone they don’t feel like cross.

For instance. They did not feel like letting him land, so the plane was turned back.

I assume not everyone has to try to cross at an official and guarded border crossing.

Yep. Keeping what goes on west of that border, well, west of that border, has been pretty much an existential pillar of Dominican foreign and security policy since… oh, since they kicked the Haitians out in 1856. Sometimes to near genocidal extremes . Haiti has been a hot mess for a long while so the border is well watched.

The U.S./Mexico border is only 8 times as long as the Dominican Republic/Haiti border but the U.S. has 29 times the population of the Dominican Republic. And the U.S. is vastly wealthier. Thus one would expect the U.S. would have a much easier time controlling its border than the Domincan Republic.

@Babale: The colonial powers (UK, France, Spain, etc) created the substantial majority of the political problems which have occurred in recent decades (slavery, drawing country borders on arbitrary lines instead of reflecting ethnic divisions…)–so they should be the ones to fix the problems–not the U.S. Haiti is an example of this where France created the problem.